killmore Posted December 27, 1999 Share Posted December 27, 1999 I am playing Chance Encounter. I was able to position all of my stugs hull down. (That what game said). But it seems that it took alies only 3 shots to kill each one. So my stugs lasted only short while - only 2 allied tanks died... What else I need to do? (Obviously I should try to play allies...) I guess allies are more experienced then stugs. We also need this: A meniu option that will say "Move tank until given point is in line of sight". This will eliminate me trying to move stug just an inch forward to get hull down position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted December 27, 1999 Share Posted December 27, 1999 I find that the best way to secure hull-down status is this: Move the vehicle until it is just below the crest of the hill (i.e. is totally hidden, but not by much) Use the LOS tool to find exactly where he LOS is blocked by the hill. Then, use HUNT to move to that spot. That should put your turret just above the crest of the hill with LOS to the area on the other side. Being able to give an order like "move until area X is in LOS" would almost certainly lead to situations wherein an enemy vehicle pops up somewhere unexpected, and your vehicle is still moving to get area X in LOS, but is also moving into perfect position for that enemy vehicle to take shot. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fester Posted December 27, 1999 Share Posted December 27, 1999 >>only 2 allied tanks died... What else I need to do? << Keep in mind that "Luck" is acurately modeled in CM Im pretty new to this game (2 weeks) so I dont have any sage advice like "Put your tank here" but it'd be a good idea tos witch sides and see things from a different perspective. >>We also need this: A meniu option that will say "Move tank until given point is in line of sight". This will eliminate me trying to move stug just an inch forward to get hull down position.<< I think this is the "Hunt" command. At least thats how I use it. When I get to a position that is close to where I want to be, or am expecting enemy contact Ill use "Hunt" to get into my exact position. So far it has worked well. Good Luck Fester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted December 27, 1999 Author Share Posted December 27, 1999 Ok. I will try hunt command - I am not very clear as to what it is doing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted December 27, 1999 Author Share Posted December 27, 1999 Ok. Stug hull down sees 2 Shermans. Fires a shot & misses. Shermans rotate turrets. Stug fires and misses. Both shermans fire at hull down stug. Stug fires and missed. Shermans? 2 Simultanious Stug penetrations. Stug is dead. (It was hull down! - shermans were in the middle of the road) Gee I wonder if AI is given maybe a bigger chances from time to time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Hudson Posted December 27, 1999 Share Posted December 27, 1999 In Chance encounter I was able to get 1 Stug into a hull down position and was able to kill 4 Shermans before Gun damage took it out. So I even a really bad player like myself who in ten trys only has won twice can do it is certainly possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted December 27, 1999 Share Posted December 27, 1999 Killmore - if it was so easy (move StuG in hull down position and win the game), World War Two would have been a lot shorter. Hull down minimizes the exposure for your StuG, but it still can be hit and destroyed, depending on the distance and experience of the Shermans and a lot of other things (luck being a major part of it, too). But you will see, over the course of ten, twenty, a hundred games, that being hull-down will make your armor survive longer and eliminate more enemies than otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper Posted December 27, 1999 Share Posted December 27, 1999 I'm not 100% sure how effective the hull-down position is in the game, but since apparently two-thirds of real-life hits were on the turret (Even though it's a smaller target), I wouldn't see it as being totally definitive. That said, I've had Stugs last quite a long time with Shermans firing over my head. Possibly also however, the Stug is being used for a role in which it wasn't totally intended. It's an infantry support gun, not a tank destroyer. I have a feeling that in hull down positions, Hetzer and Jagdpanzer with the more suitable armor and slopes (Possibly also better guns?) would deal much better ratios. DWH Manic Moran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted December 27, 1999 Author Share Posted December 27, 1999 I agree that there is still a chance of a knockout in hull down position. Just the odds here are amazing. The darn randomness allowed on the two first shots from two different tanks two penetrations of hull down stug while stug missed 3 times. That gotta be terrible luck, don't you agree? The problem is that this seems to happen a lot on my machine... It did happen to me once (in the first game!) that hull down stug killed 3 shermans. It did not miss even once! And it actually scored 7 hits but only 3 were kills. Then a sherman killed it by firing a single round from the very edge of the map. This makes for exciting game... Maybe a bit too exciting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeathome Posted December 28, 1999 Share Posted December 28, 1999 Kileld from the edge of the map huh? Remember that the map edge is probably only 6-700m away - not very far at all!! I'm looking ofrward to "real" sized maps. Also the random thing - in your encounter the Americans fired 4 shots to your 3, for an empirical hit rate was about 29% (2/7). My meagre stats trainig tells me that you had a 36% chance of getting 0 hits. Of course the actual percentages would be different, but you can see that there's probably a decent chance of you getting 0 hits. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 28, 1999 Share Posted December 28, 1999 Killmore, Sometimes **** happens. Sometimes no matter what you do the Shermans get that 1 in 10 shot while you miss your 1 in 2 shot and they nail you. Points: 1. Just cause a StuG is hull-down to ONE enemy vehicle does not mean it is hull-down to others. 2. Did you notice if the Shermans were hull-down to your StuGs also? Hint.. It IS possible for vehicles in the middle of an open field to be hull-down to a hull-down vehicle behind a hill crest. I'll explain why when I get to writing that portion of my tactics article but I think this is something that is going unnoticed by a lot of people. Also Mikeathome makes a good point. The AI does NOT get ANY advantages over you. That I can say categorically. As Moon says, over the course of 25 or 50 games you'll see that some games you just get nothing but bad breaks and others that single StuG will kill an entire company. In one game I've had two StuGs killed who should have nailed the Shermans they faced and another which has killed 4 Shermans, including two it should have been killed by. S**T happens ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted December 28, 1999 Author Share Posted December 28, 1999 The 2 Shermans I stug missed were 200 meters away. So I wonder what the change was for stug to miss 3 times stationary shermans but for both shermans to get penetrations on first shot on hull down stug on the 10 degrees slope. (Slope should have increased stug armor slope!) Hull down should have decreased chances. Remember also that both shermans penetrated stug! Only in the case where stug killed 3 shermans before the stug was killed by sherman at the edge of the map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted December 28, 1999 Author Share Posted December 28, 1999 By the way I am not complaining. I think this is a very interesting game. I just found it really amazing. The chances had to be really small! I am glad that AI does not get any special chances. And I find AI quite competent if you play the battle first three times. (After that humans gather a lot of usefull observations) I also like that battles are different every time (unlike CC...) One more question: Should buttoned Shermans have really spotted a hull down stug instantly after very first shot? Is it realistic? I was about 30 degrees off to the side and not directly in front of them. [This message has been edited by killmore (edited 12-27-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted December 28, 1999 Share Posted December 28, 1999 Well, given the situation you describe it seems highly possible to me that the Shermans were in fact hull-down to your StuG. The odds of a StuG missing a hull-down Sherman(s) three times are pretty low BUT it can happen. The odds of a Sherman hitting a hull-down StuG are pretty low. However, as I've mentioned many, many times people remember and post these "freak occurences" simply because they are outliers. Killmore, how many times have you played CM and found that tanks fought and died in a way you felt was realistic. Did you ever post about it? Nope . However, when an outlier occurs you notice it and post. This outlier is a bit strange sure BUT it is just that, a strange occurence of low probability. Low probability means that it will happen sometimes and the human brain exaggerates "outliers" in such a way that the person becomes convinced that these "outliers" (low probability occurences) occur MUCH more frequently than they really do. There are a huge number of psychological and statistics papers written about exactly this phenomenon if you want to look them up. If I look at your other example it is an example of a STuG killing 3 Shermans before dying. If I averaged these two outliers out it'd end up with relatively normal and quite common results. Sure averaging only two values is wrong (especially when they are outliers) so far as statistics go but so is presenting an outlier. Killmore, as an exercise to yourself, play about 5 games of CM.. Whenever a tank fires at another tank record if the target is hull-down or not and how many shots it takes to get a hit. Then, put all these values together, get your averages for fire vs hull-down targets and non-hull-down targets. break this down farther into StuGs and Shermans and then you'll see that the behaviour overall is quite realistic. Outliers stick in your mind cause that's how the human brain is organised Well, they normally shouldn't spot it after only one shot but sometimes they just get lucky and do. I've asked about this myself. I actually complained about this as did some other testers and I think that the spotting chances of buttoned vehicles are being adjusted downwards. If I play the CE game against the AI in the current build it plays very, very differently than the beta build you guys have. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted December 28, 1999 Author Share Posted December 28, 1999 Thanks for reply Fionn. It is great that spotting chances have decreased. This should improve the game. I would love also certain luck of communication between units on the same side. (I believe it was discussed before) So that if infantry spots a tank other units on its side cannot target it immediatelly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindan Posted December 28, 1999 Share Posted December 28, 1999 fionn is right, (again..) it just happens. I just positioned 2 of my stugs near the German end of the map. 2 Shermans come into sight. First stug and sherman fire the same time, both knocked out. 2nd stug misses, 2nd sherman hits the stug over 530m with the <font color="red">first(!!)</font> shot, penetrating and brewing it up. *bang* So what to do? Drink a Schnaps and keep going... ------------------ <"let's nuke the site from orbit!"> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted December 28, 1999 Author Share Posted December 28, 1999 By the way I can easily destroy all stug by end of turn 3 with loss of one tank. (I know fion can do it by the end of turn 2) Playing germans seems harder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knaust Posted December 28, 1999 Share Posted December 28, 1999 killmore....lets play a pbem game on Chance Encounter..me as germs...I like StuGs! My e-mail address roby@teleion.it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted December 28, 1999 Author Share Posted December 28, 1999 Sorry I am way too impacient for email games. In terms of game speed I like CC more. It requires somewhat less planning and it feels like there is fewer units. CM to me feels sometimes too much like chess. I don't want to spend 1 hour to plan next move. Real commander did not had this luxury either... Please don't try to defend CM. This is simply my reply to Knaust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted December 28, 1999 Share Posted December 28, 1999 There are a couple of other factors here. The Sherman has a higher RoF than the StuG. If two Shermans are in contact with one StuG, they have a huge advantage. Which brings me to the second big point -> 5 Shermans vs. 3 StuGs is probably a match slightly in favor of the Shermans. However, tactics and luck can make this swing in either direction. And for every StuG that goes BOOM without taking out a Sherman, the US smiles all the more as their odds of knocking out another StuG rise dramatically. All in all the Germans must have lost a lot of stuff to hits like Killmore is noting. Otherwise, the Allies would never have broke out of Normandy Seriously, how many times have we read about some German tanker KO'ing 2-5 tanks? If that was the average not even the US could have kept up production to replace all the losses. So for every Barkman there has to be a couple of Schmidts that got taken out before doing jack squat. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted December 28, 1999 Share Posted December 28, 1999 Killmore, you should do a Search for posts concerning Real Time. You will find some in depth discussions about the merrits of Real Time vs. Simultaneous Turn based games in regards to realism. Quite simply put, RT is *not* more realistic than what CM has to offer. In fact, it is far more UNREALISTIC. No commander in WWII (or now, for that matter) exercises direct, real time control over anybody but himself. So to think that a commander can realistically control the positions and actions of hundreds of men, or even thousands (CM's range) in REAL TIME is not only unrealistic, but it is utter nonsense. Close Combat is even a stretch, and you don't ever control more than something like 15 units or a couple dozen men. So the arguments you put forward hold as much water as a pot with no bottom Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nijis Posted December 28, 1999 Share Posted December 28, 1999 Um, is there any way of actually telling if one is hull-down to a given target, other than skedaddling across the board to that target and looking at yourself from the target's perspective? Not that I don't trust my eyesight, but sometimes it's nice to have a little text confirmation. I assume the "hull down" that comes up when you press "T" and put the cursor over the bad tanks means that it is hull down to you. I'm sure this question has been asked and answered before, but I couldn't find it by searching. Begging everyone's forgiveness in advance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted December 28, 1999 Share Posted December 28, 1999 There is a similar "hull down" text appearing over your unit when it is hull-down relative to the enemy unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted December 28, 1999 Author Share Posted December 28, 1999 Gees guys. I have read the real time discussions before and I am not going to get into it. Whether or not CM/CC is realistic was not my main interest. I just dislike planning for an hour. This has nothing to do with CM. I just like faster pace. Whether timing is realistic is not that important to me. What I would like to be realistic as much as possible are unit capabilities (ROF, firepower, spotting, etc). And supposedly BTS does everything possible to ensure that. And playing over email is not for me. I am too impatient. I got maybe 1.5 hour per day to play games so I want something I can start and finish in that time. Got to many other priorities. Maybe when my stocks split again then I will retire and have more time. I will enjoy playing CM by myself at home. If needed I will give my side more units because I don't want to retry missions multiple times. [This message has been edited by killmore (edited 12-28-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knaust Posted December 29, 1999 Share Posted December 29, 1999 oh well Killmore...different opinions! I play too CC2 and was a former #1 in Cases Ladder...but i like too CM...btw im played chess too! I was just curious to see how easy you take those StuGs! Have fun...buddy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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