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Some aspects of this game....


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Make me want to just play operational and strategic war games.

I am playing the british campaign and am fighting what appears to be a desperate defense. I have no high ground, and the enemy has heavy concealment.

There's a tank approaching my AT gun out in a field, it's probably about 300m away. I can get down to their level and see the tank VERY clearly, yet, they can't see it at all.

I'm finding these little flaws in the engine to make tactical combat much more silly than it has to be.

Thoughts? Similar experiences? Am I wrong? Please, let me know.

Edit: Soon after I posted this, my AT gun found the tank, it's a wonder it actually made the first strike. It took them a while to spot it, but why? Broken binocs? Panzers are enormous.

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Make me want to just play operational and strategic war games.

I am playing the british campaign and am fighting what appears to be a desperate defense. I have no high ground, and the enemy has heavy concealment.

There's a tank approaching my AT gun out in a field, it's probably about 300m away. I can get down to their level and see the tank VERY clearly, yet, they can't see it at all.

I'm finding these little flaws in the engine to make tactical combat much more silly than it has to be.

Thoughts? Similar experiences? Am I wrong? Please, let me know.

Edit: Soon after I posted this, my AT gun found the tank, it's a wonder it actually made the first strike. It took them a while to spot it, but why? Broken binocs? Panzers are enormous.

they were having tea, my you are just so uncivilized. :D You can go play some Op and Strat level games, but you'll be back. You have become an adrenaline junkie.

Now go play this one for your next fix. (you'll need CMRT)

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?p=1541688#post1541688

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they were having tea, my you are just so uncivilized. :D You can go play some Op and Strat level games, but you'll be back. You have become an adrenaline junkie.

Now go play this one for your next fix. (you'll need CMRT)

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?p=1541688#post1541688

I will have to try it out XD. I have more content than I can handle already. RT was my first CM game. TRUE LOVE.

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Each individual saw it, but pretended they didn't. See, they know that if they see the panzer, then they'll be expected to SHOOT at the panzer. And then bad things will happen to them. So, the gunner kept his head down and fiddled with knobs. The loader found something interesting on his shoe. The layer was rooting about in his rucksack. The ammo carriers were intent on their hand of whist. No one wanted to be the one to point out the panzer to the others. Bad form, old chap.

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Make me want to just play operational and strategic war games.

I am playing the british campaign and am fighting what appears to be a desperate defense. I have no high ground, and the enemy has heavy concealment.

There's a tank approaching my AT gun out in a field, it's probably about 300m away. I can get down to their level and see the tank VERY clearly, yet, they can't see it at all.

I'm finding these little flaws in the engine to make tactical combat much more silly than it has to be.

Thoughts? Similar experiences? Am I wrong? Please, let me know [End QUOTE=Squallion;1541674]

Actually, the Spotting in CMx2 does have it's issues...

Even thou your at ground level with your pixeltruppen and appear to see what they see, any indulations ( that you can't detect ) in the ground may block LOS to a degree and thus no immidiate targeting by the AI.

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No issues!? Are you joking? This game has more issues than the New York Times! I have ridiculous LOS issues in CMFI and I won't purchase any more CM games for all the problems associated with this platform. I've had a team right behind an AT gun next to a building (3m with no obstructions) that couldn't see the gun! WTF! And on several occasions have had teams assault tanks next to buildings that were 5m or less right behind the AVF that were unable to see it! No excuses can explain away these egregious examples of soldier's inability to see a 30 ton vehicle in plan site with zero impairment. Those are just a few examples of hundreds of questionable LOS matters I have experienced. I could write a dissertation on ways to improve this game and I'm not the only one. Spend a little time reading the CM forums.

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Even though you're at ground level with your pixeltruppen and appear to see what hey see...

Actually, you can't see exactly what they can see, even without any bits of terrain change you don't fully appreciate. First, you can't get below about 3m height. Second, they might be prone or kneeling. Unless there's some suitable elevation change behind the position, you can't really see "through their eyes". "Down in the weeds" is relative.

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Each individual saw it, but pretended they didn't. See, they know that if they see the panzer, then they'll be expected to SHOOT at the panzer. And then bad things will happen to them. So, the gunner kept his head down and fiddled with knobs. The loader found something interesting on his shoe. The layer was rooting about in his rucksack. The ammo carriers were intent on their hand of whist. No one wanted to be the one to point out the panzer to the others. Bad form, old chap.

Heh... this sounds like something some of my pbem opponents do when I send them an email inviting them to choose our next battle :)

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No issues!? Are you joking? This game has more issues than the New York Times! I have ridiculous LOS issues in CMFI and I won't purchase any more CM games for all the problems associated with this platform. I've had a team right behind an AT gun next to a building (3m with no obstructions) that couldn't see the gun! WTF! And on several occasions have had teams assault tanks next to buildings that were 5m or less right behind the AVF that were unable to see it! No excuses can explain away these egregious examples of soldier's inability to see a 30 ton vehicle in plan site with zero impairment. Those are just a few examples of hundreds of questionable LOS matters I have experienced. I could write a dissertation on ways to improve this game and I'm not the only one. Spend a little time reading the CM forums.

Glad to hear it's not just me. It's really a turn off. I had a bren carrier today that was about five feet away from a german halftrack. It was the dead of night, and they apparently couldn't see it.

...

Apparently they couldn't see a HALFTRACK WITH DESERT CAMO.

It's quite frustrating at times. Day battles don't seem to have nearly as many issues.

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Glad to hear it's not just me. It's really a turn off. I had a bren carrier today that was about five feet away from a german halftrack. It was the dead of night, and they apparently couldn't see it.

...

Apparently they couldn't see a HALFTRACK WITH DESERT CAMO.

It's quite frustrating at times. Day battles don't seem to have nearly as many issues.

Read some WWII histories and you'll find these things happened all the time. Units would mistake enemy vehicles for friendlies in the night, and sometimes even fall into formation with them! I'm not saying that CM explicitly models this misidentification. But I *am* saying that the effect in either case is exactly the same -- a failure to engage a close enemy that "should" have been shot at. So lighten up and loosen up and remember this is messy and chaotic *war,* not a parade ground exercise or matter of charts and penetration tables. The more you approach CM in that spirit the more you'll like it. Embrace the suck.

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Read some WWII histories and you'll find these things happened all the time. Units would mistake enemy vehicles for friendlies in the night, and sometimes even fall into formation with them! I'm not saying that CM explicitly models this misidentification. But I *am* saying that the effect in either case is exactly the same -- a failure to engage a close enemy that "should" have been shot at. So lighten up and loosen up and remember this is messy and chaotic *war,* not a parade ground exercise or matter of charts and penetration tables. The more you approach CM in that spirit the more you'll like it. Embrace the suck.

That's pretty interesting information, really. I figured that their eyes would have adjusted to the darkness after a few minutes. I guess that would be highly dependent on the situation and the light that the moon is reflecting.

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Glad to hear it's not just me. It's really a turn off. I had a bren carrier today that was about five feet away from a german halftrack. It was the dead of night, and they apparently couldn't see it.

...

Apparently they couldn't see a HALFTRACK WITH DESERT CAMO.

It's quite frustrating at times. Day battles don't seem to have nearly as many issues.

Squallion, my understanding is that LOS is calculated about every 7 seconds or so, and my understanding is that doing it more frequently would tax the abilities of current computers to handle the complex calculations.

That is immersive breaking most with AFVs. It is one thing to perhaps not see a person, but when a Panther roles around the corner of a building, and your men can't initially see it--when they are "looking right at it"-people get frustrated.

(In general, I think CM2's engine does infantry and non-urban simulations most immersively)

This is a glass half-full thing. For those of us of ASL vintage, or earlier, the ability to have this type of simulation, with such detail (and without mind-numbing rolls of the dice) is almost miraculous.

As to AT guns, there has been a spirited debate in the forum about there effectiveness, or lack of, in CM2 compared to reality. --in general, if you are using them they seem too ineffective, and if you are fighting against them they seem to effective ;) ). I think it one of the larger unsettled issues, but I have no expertise in the area. (For what it is worth, which is likely zero, they seem less effective than I am used to in previous genre games. Or, rather, as a "counter" to tanks I more often rely on infantry AT assets than AT guns, but that could also be because 1941-42 is more my area of interest)

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Spotting and the action square system are some of the dumbest things about CM, and they make the gameplay pretty clunky. I like the series enough, but these two things continue to make me want to repeatedly bash my keyboard against my desk. So no, you're not alone in thinking these things make the game unnecessarily ridiculous at times.

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No issues!? Are you joking? This game has more issues than the New York Times! I have ridiculous LOS issues in CMFI and I won't purchase any more CM games for all the problems associated with this platform. I've had a team right behind an AT gun next to a building (3m with no obstructions) that couldn't see the gun! WTF! And on several occasions have had teams assault tanks next to buildings that were 5m or less right behind the AVF that were unable to see it! No excuses can explain away these egregious examples of soldier's inability to see a 30 ton vehicle in plan site with zero impairment. Those are just a few examples of hundreds of questionable LOS matters I have experienced. I could write a dissertation on ways to improve this game and I'm not the only one. Spend a little time reading the CM forums.

Dang, you are still here?! I figured as much as you hate this game you'd be long gone. Do you find yourself hitting your thumb with a hammer repeatedly for no apparent reason or poking yourself in the eye?

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Action squares and spotting cycles (it would be fabulous if this was an user settable option) mean that there can be a lot of weird spotting things happen.

Personally I don't often run into many issues where my guys can't see something they should see. Generally I find odd moments where a guy jogging through a field spots an enemy tank 300M away through woods, buildings, burning wrecks, and more woods.

But generally I think spotting works adequately well and while I occasionally have to work around vehicle spotting and action spots it usually isn't an issue. The game isn't perfect by any means and playing within its confines means learning the ins and outs of the system to some extent.

As a side note regarding night combat. If it all possible try going outside on a moonless or near moonless night in an area with few or no lights. Your ability to see is incredibly poor. Barring that check out this gameplay video from Arma 3.

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Perhaps I'm too accommodating, but when I encounter a problem like soldiers failing to spot and and fire on the enemy instantaneously, I chalk it up to fog of war and battlefield friction. If it happened all the time, I would hate it, but I encounter it rarely enough that I can simply build it into my game narrative.

Yes, it's a game engine limitation born of hardware limitations, but I'm not sure that it doesn't actually add a measure of unpredictable realism to the game.

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Read some WWII histories and you'll find these things happened all the time.

<snip>

So lighten up and loosen up and remember this is messy and chaotic *war,* not a parade ground exercise or matter of charts and penetration tables. The more you approach CM in that spirit the more you'll like it. Embrace the suck.

So true.

Relative spotting is such a rare breed that I will happily choose it even with it's issues.

Indeed!

Guys, we all know the specific issues. We have all read about them. Some of them are things that BFC can work on and improve (and the have: like the spotting ability of tanks or the spotting cycles increased when units are in close proximity) and others are design limitations that cannot be addressed with the current computing power (like the centre of the action square area targeting issue).

Think about what we do have, as @Zebulon Pleasure Beast II, says we have a really amazing environment with FoW and relative spotting. And as @Broadsword56 says "embrace the suck", what a brilliant turn of phrase. I fear that even if all these "issues" were "fixed" there would still be complaints. After a while they all sound like "my guys didn't see X and they died" sour grapes. Yeah we get it there is a chance they should have seen X but are you really sure it is 100%? How many of you have crossed the street or driven though an intersection and had an "Oh ****" moment. How did you miss that buss right there? Well I'll tell you how: people don't see everything - they just don't. And if you think soldiers are any different then how come there are friendly fire incidents or ambushes?

Bottom line if everything does not happen to perfection just chalk it up to war is hell and keep on keeping on - you will be happier. You are not going to get perfect performance from your guys - so stop expecting it.

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Even thou your at ground level with your pixeltruppen and appear to see what they see, any indulations ( that you can't detect ) in the ground may block LOS to a degree and thus no immidiate targeting by the AI.

I don't think that is the case. If you can draw a blue targeting line to the item(s) you want to spot, you have line of sight. Whether (or when) your troops subsequently spot the target is down to the spotting cycle.

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I don't think that is the case. If you can draw a blue targeting line to the item(s) you want to spot, you have line of sight. Whether (or when) your troops subsequently spot the target is down to the spotting cycle.

Oh, I know...I meant that players that use their "eyes" only for reference at ground level ( instead of using the Target Tool ) may not see what the pixeltruppen AI sees or doesn't see...Or, as one poster mentioned, you may not always get what you see.

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Think about what we do have, as @Zebulon Pleasure Beast II, says we have a really amazing environment with FoW and relative spotting. And as @Broadsword56 says "embrace the suck", what a brilliant turn of phrase. I fear that even if all these "issues" were "fixed" there would still be complaints. After a while they all sound like "my guys didn't see X and they died" sour grapes. Yeah we get it there is a chance they should have seen X but are you really sure it is 100%? How many of you have crossed the street or driven though an intersection and had an "Oh ****" moment. How did you miss that buss right there? Well I'll tell you how: people don't see everything - they just don't. And if you think soldiers are any different then how come there are friendly fire incidents or ambushes?

Bottom line if everything does not happen to perfection just chalk it up to war is hell and keep on keeping on - you will be happier. You are not going to get perfect performance from your guys - so stop expecting it.

I think these are really important points that we should be aware of. CM is very seductive in that it allows us to intervene all the way down to the squad level to give orders to our troops. The seduction is that we then expect those troops to carry out our brilliant plans just as we envisioned them. When that doesn't happen, we feel like someone pulled the rug out from under us. But that's just how it is in real life. Someone didn't get the order, or didn't understand it, or thinks he has a better idea, or is just plain too tired or frightened or low on ammo to carry it out. These things and more come under the heading of what military theoreticians call 'friction'.

Michael

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