Germany's role in NATO

[LukeFF]

I read an interesting article earlier this week on Germany's role in NATO and why their role isn't likely to change in the near future:

http://20committee.com/2014/06/22/why-germany-refuses-to-play-a-bigger-role-in-nato/

Sikorski memorably explained, “I fear German power less than I am beginning to fear German inactivity.” Europe reached the ironic point where Warsaw demanded a more active, indeed slightly aggressive Germany.

Quite ironic indeed.

[agusto]

As ironic as Iraqs prime minister Maliki demanding US airstrikes on his country. Who would have thought that 15 years ago? The world changes, and so does policy.

But and interesting article it is indeed. I am positively surprised by the lack of conspiracy theories that can often be found on websites that have "Espionage", "Intelligence, "Terrorism" etc in their header.

The same things that can be said about Germanys post-Cold War Bundeswehr can also be said about Austrias army. Including militias, in the 1970s the goal was to be able to deploy up 350.000 men in the case of an invasion of Austria. Today only 29.000 active duty personell are left and approximately another 25.000 militias could be mobilized quickly if needed.

[Skwabie]

Quite different compared to Japan and Russia, come to think of it.

Got a dutch friend who was fretting not getting the F-35. I said you euros seem to be living large and enjoying life and that is awesome far as i see.:cool:

[agusto]

Maybe a bit off-topic, but an interesting anecdote nontheless IMO:

After the fall of the USSR, hungarian historians found plans of 1965 soviet wargames in the archives of the country. According to those plans, Vienna, from where i write right now, was to be destroyed by 2 x 500kt nuclear warheads in case of a war between NATO and the Warsaw Pact. Austrias neutrality wouldnt have saved it, the soviet planers believed that the NATO countries would use Austria for maneuvering its troops into the flanks of the soviet forces pushing through Germany anyways and thus planned to destroy the country in a pre-emptive strike.

http://www.format.at/articles/1249/930/348235/atombomben-wien

[Lethaface]

Sikorski's speach, mentioned in the article (thx btw!), is also a very good read! And IMO, very thoughtful and truthful.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2011/11/polands-appeal-germany

[Pandur]

After the fall of the USSR, hungarian historians found plans of 1965 soviet wargames in the archives of the country. According to those plans, Vienna, from where i write right now, was to be destroyed by 2 x 500kt nuclear warheads in case of a war between NATO and the Warsaw Pact. Austrias neutrality wouldnt have saved it, the soviet planers believed that the NATO countries would use Austria for maneuvering its troops into the flanks of the soviet forces pushing through Germany anyways and thus planned to destroy the country in a pre-emptive strike.

i wonder if that was befor or after they lay down 3 nuclear denial zones through lower austria.

they told me at the army in the classroom, there where 3 planned, most western one short befor "Tulln".

i find the scenario a most thrilling one, since all of lower austria and the "burgenland" where sourrounded by WP forces, Czechoslovakia in north and Hungaria east, the plan was basicly to give up lower austria, probably destroy vienna so there is no plunder and move back into the mountains and start defending past "Wels".

the narrow danube river valley past wels would have been the communist highway backdoor into southern germany, and we would have needed to plug it and delay the whole way through the mountains. the whole countrys doctrine was tailored for this monumental task.

there is more but its offtopic, by now you can find stuff about it in the net, look here for a start " http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raumverteidigung " and you can google some more with words found in it.

[agusto]

i wonder if that was befor or after they lay down 3 nuclear denial zones through lower austria.

they told me at the army in the classroom, there where 3 planned, most western one short befor "Tulln".

i find the scenario a most thrilling one, since all of lower austria and the "burgenland" where sourrounded by WP forces, Czechoslovakia in north and Hungaria east, the plan was basicly to give up lower austria, probably destroy vienna so there is no plunder and move back into the mountains and start defending past "Wels".

Dont know if you have heard already about http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/ , but here is what a 100 Mt nuclear surface detonation in Vienna would have looked like:

http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/?&airburst=0&crater=1&casualties=1&humanitarian=1&fallout=1&ff=52&fallout_angle=-110&linked=1&kt=100000&lat=48.2246177&lng=16.397235&hob_ft=0&zm=6

All of Austria either burnt, blown away or deadly radiated with a single strike.

[Saferight]

wow that nuke map is a very cool idea but at same time very scary.

[Pandur]

hm, id change that a little, since the wind is comming form north west most of the time here, all that fallout would most probably blow into hungaria, which would be a good thing in this scenario.

anyways, to stay kinda realistic within this fiction a 100mt device it highly unrelaistic to be deployed, i mean come on, a 100mt device?

however if you set some parameters different on the map, you can largely circumvent fallout. check out the same 100mt device with not a ground detonation(which maximizes fallout) like you had selected but the normal airburst, like in a height 6000 meters or above. should develope maximal pressure wave and fireball power yet not much dirt kicked up.

but yea, whatever "device" droped on that day may have been enough to be a bad thing, fallout or not.