Kauz Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 There was once a discussion about the protection ability of Halftracks against small arms in general. I can only support the issue, that PPSH, Mosin-Nagant, SVT40 and DP28 should not be able to penetrate a halftrack at 8mm angled areas because a standard rifle round is maximum capable of penetrating 5-6 mm of steel. A submachinegun round is maximum able to penetrate less than 1-2 mm But the issue i am here is another one.....: I made several tests and recognized that for instance a SG43 medium machine gun has a gun shield that works while german Halftrack does not have a working one. While i was always able to kill all gun-crew members surrounding the SG43 machine gun shield ...i never were able to kill the guy behind the gun shield....even not with heavy machine guns on shorter distances. While it is a discussion worth if a gun shield should protect against rifle rounds (not only IS "sS"... IS "S.M.K" too) i asked myself why the machine gunner in a halftrack is always a easy kill. I recognized that the gun-shield of the half-track is not existing.... Not only the fact that the halftrack-gunner is dieing fast and the SG43 gunner never dies is a hint for that. I can clearly see the impacts of rounds against the SG43 shield, while i never was able to see something similar at the halftrack. I hope this bug will get fixed! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poesel Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Setup, parameters, iterations, screenshots. Bolding text won't make it true by itself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kauz Posted June 17, 2014 Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 Setup, parameters, iterations, screenshots. Bolding text won't make it true by itself. *sigh* Thank you Kauz for bringing this issue to my (our) attention. I (we) will have a closer look. Edit: A thing which could be relevant in case you want to try it on your own is...: The SG43 was established in open-field....this wise the SG43 gunner is laying behind his gun and is completly covered by his gun shield. This wise no penetration of the shield and so no killing of the laying gunner behind is possible. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Thank you Kauz for bringing this issue to my (our) attention. I (we) will have a closer look. *sigh* it just does not work that way. To get attention you have to do some of the work and initial testing. You may not be aware of this but the issue of HT gunner and his protection or lack there of has come up before. Somewhere there is a couple of long threads - before yours I mean - where this is hashed out over and over and tests done and redone and adjusted. In the end two conclusions were reached: don't use HTs as APCs 'cause you will be sad, keep them at range behind an infantry screen so they can provide some covering fire onlythe gunner was too exposed and died fast From #1 many people learned to use HTs better. And from #2 BFC adjusted the protection offered to the HT gunner by adjusting his position so he was less exposed. The current thinking is the protection for the gunner is correct and all is well with the world. Posting a seven sentence declaration that this is still not correct after all the work and convincing that was done previously will not be enough. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kauz Posted June 17, 2014 Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 Additionally: May be it is a completly a problem of exposure. The main problem is, that the open-field SG43 let the gunner lay down.-....and this wise he is completly covered ...No small arms round was able to penetrate this shield. On the other side...yes....there are hits at "weapon mount" of Half-track and it looks like the shield could exist....but its protective power is obsolete may because the gunner exposes his head above the shield....a thing the laying SG43 gunner does not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kauz Posted June 17, 2014 Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 *sigh* it just does not work that way. To get attention you have to do some of the work and initial testing. You may not be aware of this but the issue of HT gunner and his protection or lack there of has come up before. Somewhere there is a couple of long threads - before yours I mean - where this is hashed out over and over and tests done and redone and adjusted. In the end two conclusions were reached: don't use HTs as APCs 'cause you will be sad, keep them at range behind an infantry screen so they can provide some covering fire onlythe gunner was too exposed and died fast From #1 many people learned to use HTs better. And from #2 BFC adjusted the protection offered to the HT gunner by adjusting his position so he was less exposed. The current thinking is the protection for the gunner is correct and all is well with the world. Posting a seven sentence declaration that this is still not correct after all the work and convincing that was done previously will not be enough. I understand your point... But it changes not the point that the SG43 gunner (and if i remember right the Maxim too) in open field lays down (in contrary to the HMG34/42) and hide his complete body behind the shield. This bring up the discussion point why a half-track gunner has to expose his head above the gun-shield, while a russian medium/heavy machine gunner positioned in open field is able to fire his gun without exposing his head above the gun shield. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 If I recall correctly, in CMRT half track gunners had been slightly lowered so they're more behind the gun shield. That has increased their protection level. Still, these guys standing in HTs are bullet magnets, you can tell just by looking its pretty much impossibly to keep them safe. Especially the aggressive way most players play. If you're close enough to the enemy for a PPSh to hose your HT down then you're too darned close. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kauz Posted June 17, 2014 Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 If I recall correctly, in CMRT half track gunners had been slightly lowered so they're more behind the gun shield. That has increased their protection level. Still, these guys standing in HTs are bullet magnets, you can tell just by looking its pretty much impossibly to keep them safe. Especially the aggressive way most players play. If you're close enough to the enemy for a PPSh to hose your HT down then you're too darned close. like i mentioned... open-field positioned russian medium/heavy machine gunner lays completly behind the gun-shield without exposing anything. and he is able to shoot....!!!!! So why the half-track gunner is not doing the same way?...why he has to expose his head for shooting? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Oh, it's another one of Kauz's threads... *backs away slowly and exits the thread* 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 *backs away slowly and exits the thread* LOL thanks for that, people here at work are asking me why I am laughing at my monitor. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snarre Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 kauz this shield is not sou big to cover hole body of gunner and aiming hole to gunner is all sou wery big, thats why wery high chance to hit gunner. sou it dosent realy mather how that small plate deflect shots 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wako Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Warsaw_Uprising_-_Captured_SdKfz_251_(1944).jpg Note how half the guy's body is above the shield. Even when firing he would still be quite exposed.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Anton Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Ähm ... he is holding an MP40 .... and there is no MG mounted 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Anton Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 kauz this shield is not sou big to cover hole body of gunner and aiming hole to gunner is all sou wery big, thats why wery high chance to hit gunner. sou it dosent realy mather how that small plate deflect shots Sorry but this is not true. The halftrack gunner could seek completely cover behind the shield while being able to aim and shoot. I did it myself at the Panzermuseum in Munster. To the side you are not protected. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Wako, That isn't a 251 with the gunner in combat posture. The gunner would be crouched. This pic shows the 251 gunner issue from the other end. As you can see, it's quite easy to man the gun while exposing little of oneself. Note men in pic for size comparison. http://militarymodels.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/Sdkfz-251-Gun-Shield-Posters2.jpg In this pic, an OT-810 back converted to a 251D. Note the height to which the MG shield comes up to relative to the men. And they're not crouched. http://www.2ndpanzerdivision.com/Update%201226%2015.jpg Gunner up. Not crouched. Note also armor splash lip across cab roof covering gap below MG shield. http://panzerw.narod.ru/ot_810_m01.jpg Gunner up. Semi crouched and not directly behind gun shield. http://ww2db.com/images/vehicle_sdkfz251_54.jpg Gunner hunkered down. This is how an MG gunner postures himself on his weapon when in battle. Substitute an MG-34 for the weapon shown and add in the shield. How much of the man is now visible? I'd say, very little. http://www.wehrmacht-history.com/images/heer/sd.kfz.251/sd.kfz.251-17-d-1.jpg Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acrashb Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 because a standard rifle round is maximum capable of penetrating 5-6 mm of steel. Nope. At close range, .223 / 5.56 (lead core) will go through 1/4" (6mm) steel like butter. So, a 7.62x54r will go through more steel. 8mm would not be a stretch. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 At the risk of getting attacked by him, I think what Kauz is trying to say is that the shield on the SG43 actually acts as a physical object in-game and bullets can impact and riccochet off it, while the halftrack shield doesn't. And I can't say I remember ever seeing an impact on the halftrack MG shield (riccochet or not). So it's not so much about if the shields are effective or not, but more about that they seem to be modeled differently. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snarre Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 i meaned sg43 shield not ht shield. games what im played ht shield is worked wery well and wery rare gunner shot down . only in wery close range gunner get killed. only problem what i see whit ht:s are that they panic too easyly and get suppres level sou fast 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 acrashb, Presumably, you're talking about mild steel, not armor plate. Further, even if it weren't armor plate, I have to believe that armor slope would make quite a difference. 8mm @ 35 deg/ per http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/SdKfz-251_Hanomag.php According to the same source, the armor was designed to defeat small arms and artillery shrapnel (shell fragments). It therefore seems reasonable to conclude the armor was designed to defeat what JasonC would call full power rifle/MG cartridges, likely even AP projectiles from the same weapons out to appreciable ranges. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kauz Posted June 18, 2014 Author Share Posted June 18, 2014 At the risk of getting attacked by him, I think what Kauz is trying to say is that the shield on the SG43 actually acts as a physical object in-game and bullets can impact and riccochet off it, while the halftrack shield doesn't. And I can't say I remember ever seeing an impact on the halftrack MG shield (riccochet or not). So it's not so much about if the shields are effective or not, but more about that they seem to be modeled differently. I attacked nobody ... But you are right the HT-shield seems not to be simulated the way like the SG43-shield. (btw. till now i did not see richochets at the SG43 shield....only impacts....these impacts seemed to cause after minutes of firefight sometimes a damage of the SG43 in general...it could not fire anymore) But back to the HT shield...: I see impacts at the SG43....and the gunner is laying behind the shield not even looking through the iron sight hole but still able to fire. This wise he is more or less immortal even if i fire with heavy machine guns at shorter distance.... The HT-shield seems not working the same way. I do not know if this "shield" is exactly and all over where it is shown in the game. Even if would assume that the shield is existing where it is displayed in the game...the next question would be why a HT-gunner which is under fire would still expose his head. On one of the pics of John Kettler ( http://panzerw.narod.ru/ot_810_m01.jpg ) you might be able to extrapolate where his forehead would be if he uses his eyes watching over the iron sights. For me it looks like that the shield could cover his whole head while aiming It may not cover the whole helmet ..but you know that there is space (air) between the top of the helmet and the head of the soldier. My conclusions is that i can not exactly tell you where the abstracted shield of the HT ends and in which way it provides protection or not. But my impression so far is that the HT-gunner is always easy prey while an in open-field established SG43 gun provides excellent cover for the gunner laying and shooting from behind his shield (it makes him nearly immortal).... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kauz Posted June 18, 2014 Author Share Posted June 18, 2014 acrashb, Presumably, you're talking about mild steel, not armor plate. Further, even if it weren't armor plate, I have to believe that armor slope would make quite a difference. 8mm @ 35 deg/ per http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/nazi_germany/SdKfz-251_Hanomag.php According to the same source, the armor was designed to defeat small arms and artillery shrapnel (shell fragments). It therefore seems reasonable to conclude the armor was designed to defeat what JasonC would call full power rifle/MG cartridges, likely even AP projectiles from the same weapons out to appreciable ranges. Regards, John Kettler Yep, i also have in mind that the 7,92x57 IS "sS"-standard rifle round (~3700 Joule) is able to penetrate: ~6,0mm steel (or ~ 17 mm iron) @ 0 meter ~5,0mm steel (or ~ 15 mm iron) @ 100 meter ~3,5mm steel (or ~ 10 mm iron) @ 300 meter Luckily the halftrack is not made of iron..... So angled 8mm steel will produce another outcome even for a 7,62mmX54R which is in the same equivalence class like the 7,92X57 IS. The only option to penetrate this armor is to use for instance 7,92mmX57 IS "S.M.K" (8-10% of production?) instead of the standard "sS" round. And this round was more likely to be issued to heavy machine gun units (as far as i know). Would interesting if there was a russian counterpart to that round....and in which amount it was distributed to the soviet army. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kauz Posted June 18, 2014 Author Share Posted June 18, 2014 By the way.... on several occasions i could observe that the casualties in the halftrack which are caused by smalls arms fire (i am not talking about the HT-gunner now) seemed to be produced due to armor spalling. I do not know if it is plausible that such small rounds (with there low impulse) are able to cause armor spalling in a half track...... Anyone an idea/suggestion about that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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