Buddy Aid

[TheBog11]

It is my opinion that the pixeltruppen in CM2 perform buddy aid too readily, and will do it no matter how close the enemy is.

I am playing the scenario "Augustow Plague Boil". I have noticed a trend: as my landsers advance through the forests, a dastardly commie will open up with his PPsh, killing a German and forcing the rest to go to ground.

A minute will pass, and than one of his squadmates will start performing buddy aid - only now he's in perfect few of the enemy (who are less than 50 yards away), since the rest of the squad is on their bellies.

Another Papasha burst, another dead German, and the process repeats itself...

I think the issue is requiring the troops to "assume the position". If troops could perform buddy aid lying down, it would go a long way to fix the problem.

[womble]

This has been remarked upon before, and I think we've probably all suffered from it within a few games of starting with x2... Another issue, perhaps, is that high morale troops, and low experience troops will start feeling secure enough to give aid sooner and less wisely than the other end of the scale of soft factors.

[TheBog11]

I think it's more the nature of the scenario that brought it to my attention. Forested terrain, elevation changes where it's important to hug the earth.

[H1nd]

+1 for buddy aid while prone.

[womble]

I think it's more the nature of the scenario that brought it to my attention. Forested terrain, elevation changes where it's important to hug the earth.

First time I saw it really sting (and prone wouldn't have helped) was in Razorback Ridge. There was a team in a farmhouse, and a German LMG could fire down from an elevation not too far away into the window. I wasn't watching particularly carefully and it wasn't until the second Buddy Aid-er copped it that I realised they weren't being so good at the "self preservation" thing.

[mjkerner]

Okay, this is not tested, only passing observation, but it seems to me, if I Hide the guys doing the buddy aid, they will be treated as prone, even though the animation shows them kneeling. I was upset at times when my guys would do the buddy aid thing in clear sight of the enemy, so I started putting them on hide as soon as possible. Also, when I deliberately want to send them to give aid, I have them Slow/crawl to the person, and make sure they have Hide orders. Seems to work. I've had guys buddy aid within 2 or 3 Action Squares from the enemy (but usually behind cover or concealment), and they are neither spotted nor fired on...usually.

[TheBog11]

I would assume that this would prevent the rest of the squad from returning fire?

[mjkerner]

bog, I usually split them into teams, but yes, on hide they generally won't fire, but I have sen the others do so at times when the enemy is that close.

[TheBog11]

That's cool, I will try that in the future.

[mjkerner]

Let us know how it turns out...how off or on were my passing observations?

[LukeFF]

I think the issue is requiring the troops to "assume the position". If troops could perform buddy aid lying down, it would go a long way to fix the problem.

I'm against allowing troops to perform buddy aid while prone, unless it's just to remove weapons and ammo from a dead body (but then, of course, that wouldn't be buddy aid). It's extremely difficult (read: just about impossible) to render medical aid to a casualty while laying prone, and it's certainly something that I was never taught or drilled to do while I was medic in the military - nor did we ever teach such a thing to Combat Lifesavers.

[Erwin]

Luke's point is hard to argue with. So, the question is whether, in a situation where the enemy is very dangerous and likely to shoot the aider, the aid trooper should even attempt to do that.

I always administer buddy aid. In many cases, I have had troops who seemed to be a distance away from any danger and it would take several minutes for them to administer aid, sometimes they never do. So, not sure why in this instance the guys keep "committing suicide".

[db_zero]

We need medics in the game. Battlefield priests would also be a nice feature. Not holding my breath though.

[RockinHarry]

I'm against allowing troops to perform buddy aid while prone, unless it's just to remove weapons and ammo from a dead body (but then, of course, that wouldn't be buddy aid). It's extremely difficult (read: just about impossible) to render medical aid to a casualty while laying prone, and it's certainly something that I was never taught or drilled to do while I was medic in the military - nor did we ever teach such a thing to Combat Lifesavers.

We´re speaking more of first aid situations and not true medics doing their job under "ideal" circumstances. This guy appears to be less concerned doing his job laying in prone stance and still beeing in a lively combat zone:

[TheBog11]

I'm against allowing troops to perform buddy aid while prone, unless it's just to remove weapons and ammo from a dead body (but then, of course, that wouldn't be buddy aid). It's extremely difficult (read: just about impossible) to render medical aid to a casualty while laying prone, and it's certainly something that I was never taught or drilled to do while I was medic in the military - nor did we ever teach such a thing to Combat Lifesavers.

I always pictured "buddy aid" as Pvt. Schultz slapping a bandage on Pvt. Landengraben while he's laying there bleeding out and trying to think of Germany. I think this could be accomplished prone.

Alas, since buddy aid is abstracted, and doesn't differentiate between slapping on a bandage and performing major surgery, it may not be easily fixable.

mjkerner, I still need to try your advice. I tend to shy away from fixes that require more micromanagement, which I feel splitting the squads does. However, it may be the only way around it for now.

[LukeFF]

This guy appears to be less concerned doing his job laying in prone stance and still beeing in a lively combat zone:

Well, two things with that pic: first, that medic isn't really lying prone while doing his job, hence his arms are more free to do what he needs to do. Secondly, the medic and the casualty he's treating may well be under/behind some sort of cover that we can't see in the picture.

Trust me, I was in probably the world's best-trained and experienced military Medical Corps for six years, during a period of intense fighting, and rendering medical aid in the prone position simply wasn't something we trained to do, nor did I ever hear of other medics performing.

[Ithikial_AU]

Is buddy aid decision making influenced by nearby sound / '?' contacts? Say within 50 meters? If it isn't then that could be a possible solution from a player's point of view.

[womble]

Is buddy aid decision making influenced by nearby sound / '?' contacts? Say within 50 meters? If it isn't then that could be a possible solution from a player's point of view.

I don't think it is, strongly, or wasn't when I first suffered from over-keen Buddy Aid, and yes, it could be, I think. Wouldn't be a perfect solution (plenty of danger outside 50m) but would be a good start.

[Combatintman]

Sorry but this is the post of an irritated person who is fed up and I generally don't like flaming new guys but ....

You start with 'in my opinion'

If your opinion is informed by combat and life saving experience them it is relevant, otherwise it is not.

The BLUF message is, if you forgive the pun ... in regard to the situation described live with it or play real time.

Luke FF's expert advice and my own limited real life experience in these situations is exactly as he said, to even give basic first aid you need to be at least kneeling.

On the other side of the coin think about the person you most love in life and imagine them being stricken. Then think - what would you do? Would you refuse to give aid because 'you only do it lying down'' or would you act naturally despite the risks? How do you legislate for that in a game of this nature? In combat, the people you are with are always your best mates.

What we have in the game is a half way house through abstraction.

Where do we go from here ... multiple threads supported by re-enactment videos, and (if we're lucky) save games. Threads might be as follows:

Scenario 1: 'the guy was hit in the arm by a 7.92mm round fired from 700m at an angle of 3200 mils in open terrain in rainy conditions etc, etc yet the buddy aid guy applied a tourniquet to the left leg although he was a 'Veteran'. In my opinion he would have had a shattered arm and be suffering arterial bleeding and the buddy aid guy should have known that instantly and knelt on the pressure point (because that is what it takes).

Scenario 2: 'The guy should never have been hit because it was a 7.92mm round fired from 700m at an angle of 3200 mils in open terrain in rainy conditions and the firer was rated as 'Green' etc etc.

Let me present scenario 3 - if your bloke gets hit try one or all of the following:

A. Question why your poor play allowed that to happen.

B. Deal with it.

C. Go into medicine.

Again, I apologise for being grumpy but I'm kind of bored with a lot of this 'in my opinion this isn't realistic' stuff - particularly as I haven't seen anybody complain about the body 'disappearing' after buddy aid - from the perspective of somebody who has had to make somebody 'disappear' under fire I can tell you that it is the hardest thing that you can do in both emotional and physical terms.

[Vencini]

When one of the soldiers of an AT gun,mortars, Medium Machine guns, etc. (crewed weapons in general) get wounded, the rest of the crew don't give buddy aid.

I have to use another unit to help the wounded soldier.

I think it will be great to give the capacity of buddy aid to this crewed units. Please Battlefront, implement this in the future. Thanks

Maybe there is a reason for this crewed units for not to give buddy aid??? :-S

Have a good weekend and regards!

OFF TOPIC: Could some one,please, explain with images. How the soviet echelon tactic works? With images please. I read that they used this tactic during the war, but It's hard to me to understand (visually) how it works in a "modern" war with trenches,bunkers,machineguns, barbed wire, mines, artillery...Etc. It seems me "primitive" and near to the "suicidal"

And, finally, :-D , how the patch it's doing? Any date?

[poesel]

When one of the soldiers of an AT gun,mortars, Medium Machine guns, etc. (crewed weapons in general) get wounded, the rest of the crew don't give buddy aid.

IME they do if there is more than one survivor and the weapon system still works. But they do it only after a while without enemy contact.

[Kauz]

....

Trust me, I was in probably the world's best-trained and experienced military Medical Corps for six years, during a period of intense fighting, and rendering medical aid in the prone position simply wasn't something we trained to do, nor did I ever hear of other medics performing.

Well...LukeFF,

correct me please.... i have a very reduced picture of what a medic in the field is capable of.

I could imagine that first things a "first aid medic" is capable of doing would be like:

1:

a) trying to reanimate in case it is needed (by hand, defibillator and/or inject adrenaline ...or whatever).

stopping the bleeding ( or at least try to reduce it at the possible areas (at peripheries) .....- inner bleeding are problematic i think....-

2:

a) giving pain-medication

giving blood-conserves (or at least plasma)

3

c) orientates the body (stable side position) (in case he is not wounded at the spine/backbone)

d) applicates some disinfection to the wounds and bandage them

e) splint the fractures

Some of these things are more needed/important and some need may be a not prone position.

I do not think that a field-medic is able to perform like a "surgeon"....

He is more like a emergency doctor or less.

So i think that his task is especially to do the things which are necessary in the first seconds and minutes after the injury.

And this wise the medic....if he is a brave one ...always try his best to reach a wounded man and help him, even if he has to prone for doing his work.

I think especially 1b) and 2a) are possible and necessary in a prone-position.

[womble]

IME they do if there is more than one survivor and the weapon system still works. But they do it only after a while without enemy contact.

Yeah, if there's only one left, they prioritise working the gun. In the case of MGs, this can be sidestepped, IIRC, by packing up the MG, then the "lone gunner" will give buddy aid.

Well...LukeFF,

stopping the bleeding ( or at least try to reduce it at the possible areas (at peripheries) .....- inner bleeding are problematic i think....-

Perhaps you missed Combatintman's post where he said...

... the buddy aid guy should have known that instantly and knelt on the pressure point (because that is what it takes).

It can take a lot of pressure to stop major arterial bleeding.

giving blood-conserves (or at least plasma)

You have an inflated opinion of what "Buddy Aid" represents. Standard ww2 gropo gear does not include plasma and IV lines. The best you could hope for is a tourniquet and a bandage.

I do not think that a field-medic is able to perform like a "surgeon"....

And once again, Kauz, you ignore people who know better than you.

[TheBog11]

Sorry but this is the post of an irritated person who is fed up and I generally don't like flaming new guys but ....

You start with 'in my opinion'

If your opinion is informed by combat and life saving experience them it is relevant, otherwise it is not.

The BLUF message is, if you forgive the pun ... in regard to the situation described live with it or play real time.

Luke FF's expert advice and my own limited real life experience in these situations is exactly as he said, to even give basic first aid you need to be at least kneeling.

On the other side of the coin think about the person you most love in life and imagine them being stricken. Then think - what would you do? Would you refuse to give aid because 'you only do it lying down'' or would you act naturally despite the risks? How do you legislate for that in a game of this nature? In combat, the people you are with are always your best mates.

What we have in the game is a half way house through abstraction.

Where do we go from here ... multiple threads supported by re-enactment videos, and (if we're lucky) save games. Threads might be as follows:

Scenario 1: 'the guy was hit in the arm by a 7.92mm round fired from 700m at an angle of 3200 mils in open terrain in rainy conditions etc, etc yet the buddy aid guy applied a tourniquet to the left leg although he was a 'Veteran'. In my opinion he would have had a shattered arm and be suffering arterial bleeding and the buddy aid guy should have known that instantly and knelt on the pressure point (because that is what it takes).

Scenario 2: 'The guy should never have been hit because it was a 7.92mm round fired from 700m at an angle of 3200 mils in open terrain in rainy conditions and the firer was rated as 'Green' etc etc.

Let me present scenario 3 - if your bloke gets hit try one or all of the following:

A. Question why your poor play allowed that to happen.

B. Deal with it.

C. Go into medicine.

Again, I apologise for being grumpy but I'm kind of bored with a lot of this 'in my opinion this isn't realistic' stuff - particularly as I haven't seen anybody complain about the body 'disappearing' after buddy aid - from the perspective of somebody who has had to make somebody 'disappear' under fire I can tell you that it is the hardest thing that you can do in both emotional and physical terms.

You've got a point, but unfortunately it's on top of your head.

I can have opinions, and it matters not a tinker's toot whether they're informed by battlefield experience or not.

It's not "poor play", either. The troops will just robotically perform buddy aid no matter what's around them.

Let's say you're in Fallujah around the time of the fighting there. Your squaddie gets shot in the stomach. He's laying there moaning. There's probably a rifleman watching him, waiting to finish him off.

Now I guarantee that you'll want to help him, but as much as you are hurt by seeing your buddy lying there gutshot, self-preservation maaaaay just kick in a bit.

But the game doesn't allow for that. The pixeltruppen will perform buddy aid, even at the expense of their own lives.

I think that allowing prone buddy aid will go a long way. The entire process is already abstracted, so another abstraction wouldn't hurt.

I also question anyone's motives who bloviates about "WELL I WAS THERE". This is, in fact, a computer game!

[Kauz]

Yeah, if there's only one left, they prioritise working the gun. In the case of MGs, this can be sidestepped, IIRC, by packing up the MG, then the "lone gunner" will give buddy aid.

Perhaps you missed Combatintman's post where he said...

It can take a lot of pressure to stop major arterial bleeding.

You have an inflated opinion of what "Buddy Aid" represents. Standard ww2 gropo gear does not include plasma and IV lines. The best you could hope for is a tourniquet and a bandage.

I do not think that a field-medic is able to perform like a "surgeon"....

And once again, Kauz, you ignore people who know better than you.

*sigh*

1.

better you read more careful what i wrote ...before you start flaming...here what i wrote:

"correct me please.... i have a very reduced picture of what a medic in the field is capable of."

2.

You can stop peripheral bleeding by establishing pressure bandage/tourniquet. If it does not stop just add addionally further pressure bandages:

www.sprechzimmer.ch/include_php/previewdoc.php?file_id=4927

If you can do this or not(adding a pressure bandage) while proning, better you let answer people who know something about it.....i guess you are not....

3.

The List i made was what i "could imagine" ....if you read carefully.

I never said that it is like this in specific.

If a field-medic of today or of yesterday is more probable to carry a blood conserve with him i do not know....

I just wanted to make clear that a first-aid medic is maximum a emergency doctor and not a surgeon.

He has to do the emergency things like adding pressure bands to stop the bleeding (and give pain killers.)

If he is not able to provide these two things (1b) and 2a)) in a prone position i would not be happy for the soldiers in combat and would ask myself if he is only able to give first aid under "optimal" conditions...(which you will have not quite often on a battlefield...like you can imagine)