Combat Mission and Steam

[z1812]

When Battlefront started as Big Time Software they decided "Oh let's design wargames for a living and wait...... let's make them 3d". I wonder what their friends and family thought of that business plan?

It could only be the plan of people who really like war gaming. In short, Nuts........like us.

Surviving and being successful in the gaming business, let alone a niche market like high fidelity tactical warfare, is quite an achievement.

14 years on and still making the best tactical wargames available. Obviously they know what hard core fussy wargamers want and what business model works well for them.

[poesel]

CM is definitely not a game of instant gratification. You have to invest a lot of time learning and even more to master it. Thus it has no mass appeal.

Then it covers a very specific subject which narrows down audience even more.

Such a specific group of people is usually well informed about their area of interest so it is very likely that they have heard of CM.

So more exposition through Steam would only work on people that do not know yet that they are into wargames and those wargamers that have not heard of CM but are on Steam. For the first group any wargame will do the trick and pull them in. The second group is, I guess, rather small.

Steam also discounts products after a while BFCs strategy is to keep the games fresh through the updates. Since you can't play 'through' CM and its main point is (for me, YMMV) to play against other humans this only makes sense. CM has no need to be and stay in vogue to fill up multiplayer servers.

I see no point for CM on Steam.

[Kieme(ITA)]

That's a very good analysis poesel, I agree completely.

[Redwolf]

In my opinion It would help battlefront to put the combat nission series on stean buy personally I dont think combat mission would sell very well with younger kids like call of duty fans I came to this conclusion .Since I am 16 when people see me playing combat mission they say the game looks like garbage so it cant be good from what I have seen a lot of people my age seem to prefer graphics over gameplay.

There are also UI issues that the crowd here can live with, thanks to muscle memory after you decided you *will* make the investment, but that would get very negative feedback on steam.

The steam crowd would also react even less favorably than this one if values for turning vehicles, breakdown, turning guns etc are all picked to be too slow (compared to youtube or whatever).

I don't think it would be hopeless after a couple cleanups, though.

[A Canadian Cat]

I think by far the majority of computer game players are not going to be interested in CM, it's simply not their cup of tea. And those that will are likely going to hear about the game and at least try out the demos.

I am not sure I agree with that - check out my forum join date. The minute I heard about CM I went back to my desk and checked out their webstie. With in the hour I was signed up on the forum and I purchased CMBB and CMAK that night. I was thrilled with the concept but was heart sick that I had not heard about it earlier. If I had discovered CMBO back when it came out I would have been playing CM games for 10 more years. That is 10 years of war-gaming that I missed out on

I have no idea where I would have heard about CM games if it was not for the total accident that I happened to overhear a couple of coworkers talking about the announcement of CMBN. There is an excellent chance that had I not happened to hear that conversation I would still not be a customer of BFC's.

I am not sure how may of us war-game fans there are who are totally out of the loop on the existence of CM games. It always struck me that I cannot be the only one who gave up on table top gaming long ago and just does not know about CM games.

[Kieme(ITA)]

ian, did you use steam at the time or not?

Sometimes it's pure luck indeed.

Not sure steam would reach more people than an advertising campaign could, and you would need money for both, at least steam is sure to be pretty international while an ad campaign should be most probably focused on one or few countries. For example here in Italy CMFI would be looked at more interestingly than a CMK (combat mission Korea, made up title) and CMRT surely had more russian and polish fans than CMFI...

I first saw CMBO demo on a CD full of demos that came with my favourite gaming magazine back at the time (CMBO had still to be released but the demo was around).

Then I saw some CMBN ad on a modelling magazine iirc, but now that I think of it I rarely saw advertisements of CM series games...

[A Canadian Cat]

ian, did you use steam at the time or not?

Sometimes it's pure luck indeed.

Nope no steam installed at my house. And I have no interest either. Very few games appeal to me really.

Your points about advertising are valid of course - huge effort. I am not sure how BFC would have reached me frankly because I really was not (and am still not) paying attention to "gaming" or even "war gaming".

So, in short, come to think of it, I am probably not a good example If I had a time machine I would tell my self to watch for BFC's new game (plus one or two stock tips as well). Ah well I guess that means I never get access to a time machine

[Doug Williams]

CM is definitely not a game of instant gratification. You have to invest a lot of time learning and even more to master it. Thus it has no mass appeal.

Then it covers a very specific subject which narrows down audience even more.

Such a specific group of people is usually well informed about their area of interest so it is very likely that they have heard of CM.

So more exposition through Steam would only work on people that do not know yet that they are into wargames and those wargamers that have not heard of CM but are on Steam. For the first group any wargame will do the trick and pull them in. The second group is, I guess, rather small.

Steam also discounts products after a while BFCs strategy is to keep the games fresh through the updates. Since you can't play 'through' CM and its main point is (for me, YMMV) to play against other humans this only makes sense. CM has no need to be and stay in vogue to fill up multiplayer servers.

I see no point for CM on Steam.

Well said, Sir.

[Doug Williams]

I've seen this discussion come up numerous times and I realize that it won't actually go anywhere. At this point it is discussion for discussions sake.

I sometimes wonder if have a cheaper base game would increase total sales dollars. Right now to even get into CM you have to drop $50. Which is a quite a bit of cash. So you have this big impediment to play and then a number of expansions that are also very expensive. Might there be more sales if the base game was cheaper? It would make the expansion more palatable cost wise, and two modules would net $80 in sales? + whatever the base game were to cost.

I would imagine that $50 (U.S. dollars) is not "quite a bit of cash" to most CM players. It's probably just equivalent to taking the wife out to dinner and a movie, or buying five decent novels that will be read in a few months, or buying some other computer game that we would play and be finished with in a month or two, and then delete.

CM has been a bargain for me, in terms of entertainment value per week, ever since CMBO.

[MikeyD]

I recently looked up the price of a Bronco 1/35 Staghound model kit and was shocked to find it selling for over $100 on some sites! Yikes, just for one model! If instead of a fancy video game you think of CM as 'virtual modeling' its a steal. More than 100 vehicles for less than the price of a single hobby kit.

[AstroCat]

Just adding my opinion:

I like Steam, think it's been great for the PC market. I'd love to see CMx2 games on Steam, always have, I think it would open up the market even further. Matrix was the same way with Distant Worlds, now it's on Steam, boom! Huge jump in sales and new life for the franchise, also a niche game.

So, yeah I really think CM games on Steam is a total win. And I saw some thing about $50 for a game being some kind of an issue or something, really? For all the entertainment hours you get, giving the huge costs of development, I say $50 is no issue at all.

[slysniper]

"Most high fidelity computer sims and cardboard wargames sell for that and a LOT more. "

Which is why I don't buy them. They are really expensive for what you get.

I rarely buy any games for more than $20. A single CM game is equivalent to 3-5 other purchases. it is not a small purchase.

As far as I am concerned, this is your only real goal. You would like BF to put the games on steam in hopes that they would be cheaper there and cost you less. You have no invested interest on how much more the game sells, it does not impact you in any facet.

BF has learned to make a living doing it the way they presently do. They see no realistic chance on selling huge volumes of the game and so have no interest in that type of marketing plan.

As for you, go waste your money on them other $20 dollar games and save your money then. For some of us, the extra price is worth the value and could care less about how they stack up to what the rest of the gaming market does. Some things in life is worth the price. This is one of these cases.

[herr_oberst]

Youngest son (17) is a gamer -- has tons of games from Steam.

I'll admit to the "I have a license, so download it to my machine" is nice -- he complains whenever I have to resurrect his machine after he downloads some piece of carp (mostly player-made modules for some game or other) -- but he does the Steam thing on his time, not mine - win for him, bigger win for me, the home IT guy.

He and several of his friends have watched about 20 minutes each of newer CM (BN, FI, or RT) . Universal opinion when they ask to try a couple of turns, and gets their a$$es handed to them by the AI is that "You have to think to much to play this game." I've watched many an infantry/tank Zerg-rush get chopped to pieces -- for one particular friend, he thought he was a studly hard-core gamer, so I gave him "School of Hard Knocks" (even after I warned him I got trounced the first time or two, was he sure? -- yes, I can be evil sometimes).

'nuff said. IMO, very different markets for players in general. Yes, there will be exceptions either way, but the general rule seems to hold true -- CM players are en masse, not your typical Steam game players.

I'm good with BF, what they build, and how they deliver. Steam would bring no value added for me.

[Pelican Pal]

As far as I am concerned, this is your only real goal. You would like BF to put the games on steam in hopes that they would be cheaper there and cost you less. You have no invested interest on how much more the game sells, it does not impact you in any facet.

BF has learned to make a living doing it the way they presently do. They see no realistic chance on selling huge volumes of the game and so have no interest in that type of marketing plan.

As for you, go waste your money on them other $20 dollar games and save your money then. For some of us, the extra price is worth the value and could care less about how they stack up to what the rest of the gaming market does. Some things in life is worth the price. This is one of these cases.

Oh jesus... Really? I greedily want cheaper games from BFC so I am hatching this plan to get them on Steam, and of course you are some great defender of the niche wargame? Really?

Edit:

Games on Steam are not magically cheaper. The developer still sets the price. It is the nature of most games to have numerous deep price cuts overtime to increase sales. Now this isn't always true, in fact the Call of Duty series and anything made by EA are great examples of a publisher refusing to do deep discounts. Deep discounts are not a requirement of Steam.

As for impacting me. A possible increase in sales would result in more income which would result in more money which would result in a better CM. I would also get to have my CM games on Steam which, to be honest, would be wonderful. As a service nothing really compares with what Steam offers.

"As for you, go waste your money on them other $20 dollar games and save your money then."

Oh, of course I am wasting my money... How silly of me. Thanks for letting me know.

"For some of us, the extra price is worth the value and could care less about how they stack up to what the rest of the gaming market does. Some things in life is worth the price. This is one of these cases."

Which is why I've purchased $170+ dollars of CM games.

Herr Oberst - Judging what people will and won't do from anecdotal evidence and these forums (especially these forums) is a bit hasty. If you are on this forum you are much more invested than nearly every other CM gamer there is. You are spending time not playing the game talking about the game.

And once again Close Combat, a series with roots in ASL, was in the top 20 sellers for a period of 3-4 days. At one point being 3rd.

[H1nd]

My impression on this subject is that this is beginning to look more like a battle between generations. It is very silly how most of you older chaps really think that adults are still a tiny fraction of gamers. This was true 20 years ago but really, player middle age is roughly 30 these days. In addition to this it is very common that despite game being in steam it will attract certain audience of certain age and not some flood of COD kiddies like so many here seem to be afraid of. Seriously you have very very strange view on gaming in general. Just because your son does something does not frieking mean that every other younger player is the same out there. Especially when they get past 20. It's so funny how this thread is turning more into personal issues like people accusing PP of wanting this or that beucause of some selfish agenda. I am seeing here a emerging picture of old-timers desperatedly trying to protect their own private hiding place in the gaming world from younger generations (especially their own issue). How selfish is that?

BFC will do what it sees is best. It can be wrong, it can be ultimatelly a bad strategy. It can be that they too are afraid of change and new things. It can also be like I said earlier: good thing, that they know the limits of niche market. The point is this has very little to do with player age and generation sort of stuff Unless steve uses all the very same arguments that I have seen here.

Lastly I still want to point out that it is always the one who refuses to change that will fall and be forgotten. Allways. The true question is then: when should you change. Steam has been around now for over a decade. It has dominated gaming industry for 7-8 years. It will dominate the industry for a long time if unless some thing totally unexpected happens. There is still (some?) time for BFC to plan thei next move.

PS: some people have used Red orchestra 2 as example of good and bad things about steam. But really, would the whole game even exist if it had not published trough steam? What other options could it have taken? While being the the most realistic ww2 fps around it only proves that games that are hardcore and emphasis realism over "themepark experience" can benefit from steam. Infact the existence RO2 pretty much is possible only because of steam as it is only way for the niche fps players to find each others in large enough numbers and congregate under a banner of single FPS game. Never ever underestimate the marketing value of steam.

[Michael Emrys]

I recently looked up the price of a Bronco 1/35 Staghound model kit and was shocked to find it selling for over $100 on some sites! Yikes, just for one model! If instead of a fancy video game you think of CM as 'virtual modeling' its a steal. More than 100 vehicles for less than the price of a single hobby kit.

I had a similar eye opening experience recently. Some of my military history magazines carry ads for models of various kinds, and though it has been many years indeed since the last time I put one together, sometimes I like to peruse the ads in a nostalgic haze remembering my earlier days. But then my eye drifts down to the listed price and violent sticker shock sets in. What??? Over a hundred bucks for a 1/72nd. plastic kit?!?!? Are they out of their f---ing minds?!?!? Okay, so I may be as old as dirt, but I can still recall picking up a decent kit in the hobby store for a single buck. Whatever happened to progress? Is it only for the super-wealthy now?

Michael

[snarre]

i sayed about RO 2 . yes i dont denied about good options and selling trought steam but my example was how mutch bad it can do to game . when RO 2 published, Ro community lived "golden age " but some reason then happend somthing on few clans plus we see too many COD gids hos complaining ewerything and this start snow ball efect what start to kill community and drop down player number. i speak aboud COD gids and i dont mean it on bad but this guys are used to play happy shooter game where you dont had to think too mutch stradegy or what you do , tjust go and shoot people. then when this gamer group dont intressed about game because its too hard to them, that start to lower down sales on game and sou on.

sorry bad english hoply you understandet what i mean

[Doug Williams]

My impression on this subject is that this is beginning to look more like a battle between generations. It is very silly how most of you older chaps really think that adults are still a tiny fraction of gamers. This was true 20 years ago but really, player middle age is roughly 30 these days.

This might be a bit of a derail, but I'm finished with the Steam discussion, because I trust BFC to do what they think is best for the CM series. If they ever decide to sell CM on Steam, fine with me (I am on Steam), if not, fine with me (I can play games just fine without Steam).

What I wanted to comment on is......is the median age of a "gamer" really 30 these days? Also, define "gamer"? Let's assume, for the sake of simplicity, that we are talking about "video games", and not cardboard games and/or pen&paper games. Do you mean the median age of all Steam users is 30? Or...do you mean the median age of all console + PC gamers is 30? I could almost believe the former, but certainly not the latter, since PC gaming requires a higher investment in hardware than console gaming. I'm also completely ignoring smart phone and tablet gaming.

I find this fascinating. At the very high end of "video gaming" you probably have the flight sim guys who spend thousands of dollars on hardware. I would imagine that the median age of these guys is at least 40. At the low end, you have the 14 year old who's mom & dad bought him the latest console and a couple of games from Wal-Mart for his/her birthday.

[Jock Tamson]

CM is definitely not a game of instant gratification. You have to invest a lot of time learning and even more to master it. Thus it has no mass appeal.

Strategy games are not expected to have instant gratification. I think we can agree the potential appeal of CM is to people who like strategy games. I think the difficulty of CM is overstated, particularly if you have played anything like Close Combat. Victoria 2 - that is an example of a difficult game.

Then it covers a very specific subject which narrows down audience even more.

I wouldn't know what percentage of strategy games are concerned with WW2, but it is pretty high.

Such a specific group of people is usually well informed about their area of interest so it is very likely that they have heard of CM.

Only within the last couple of months have I informed myself about (and bought) Command Ops. Additionally I have lost count of the number of games such as Sins of a Solar Empire, Europa Universalis which I have heard of, quite fancied the look of, and bought on a whim because they were available on Steam, a store which happens to be running on my computer. Keeping abreast of what is available can be surprisingly difficult, particularly if you work/have a family/rarely have a decent amount of time on the PC.

So I feel the only valid reasons for keeping CM off Steam are commercial, not to do with how Steam works for people or how the markets for different types of games interact with it. I think it is significant that Matrix have started selling games on it.

When I first got back into gaming in 2011 (first gaming was in the 80s on a Spectrum and the 90s on an Amiga), I had heard of Steam and dismissed it as some Kafka-esque means of making my gaming life a total ball ache. So I bought my first game for the PC - Rise of Flight - on CD. First and last CD purchase. Everything since then has been a digital download, 90% on Steam, no issues.

[Ranger33]

Just for fun, the Google trends chart for the search term "distant worlds".

Notice how the interest in Matrix's game is quite literally off the charts since releasing on Steam.

[H1nd]

This might be a bit of a derail, but I'm finished with the Steam discussion, because I trust BFC to do what they think is best for the CM series. If they ever decide to sell CM on Steam, fine with me (I am on Steam), if not, fine with me (I can play games just fine without Steam).

What I wanted to comment on is......is the median age of a "gamer" really 30 these days? Also, define "gamer"? Let's assume, for the sake of simplicity, that we are talking about "video games", and not cardboard games and/or pen&paper games. Do you mean the median age of all Steam users is 30? Or...do you mean the median age of all console + PC gamers is 30? I could almost believe the former, but certainly not the latter, since PC gaming requires a higher investment in hardware than console gaming. I'm also completely ignoring smart phone and tablet gaming.

I find this fascinating. At the very high end of "video gaming" you probably have the flight sim guys who spend thousands of dollars on hardware. I would imagine that the median age of these guys is at least 40. At the low end, you have the 14 year old who's mom & dad bought him the latest console and a couple of games from Wal-Mart for his/her birthday.

I only have this wikipedia link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_culture#Demographics) to back me up. I think I have read higher numbers in other sources IIRC but in general the number seems to be 30 or even up to 34-35. Naturally depending on country etc etc. Kids most likely favour consoles over PC but all in all I think the player age is very much irrelevant these days since people regardles of their age can still behave like drooling idiots or at best immaturely on forums and in games. All in all i think the age is irrelevant. Young gamers can be as interested in deep strategy games as older ones. I for myself have been playing tiller's campaign series games since I was 14. As well as Close combat and steel panthers.

Some how I get a feeling that the community here is slightly stuck on idea that new hardcore niche gamers are not born anymore and while I say that the age it self is mostly a side track in regards of CM on STEAM there is this to consider: How do new players find CM? New players regardles of their age are accustomed that new games are found on steam and there is no need to look elsewhere! This indoctrination has been going on for past 8 years. So there are probably a lots of people who would be interested, would have the faculties and the nerve to play CM. But they simply dont know it exists!

BFC and the community here seems to expect that new players miraculously keep finding CM without any real promotion what so ever and that they do it by looking out for their web page. NOBODY DOES IT ANYMORE! Because there is steam. So yes. While I respect the BFC and think and hope that they know what they are doing there is this doubt at the back of my head: Everyone who refuses to change with time will be undone by time and will be left forgotten.

[H1nd]

Sorry for the finnish.

nothing to see here, move along!

snarrelle: Klaanit on kuollu kaikista fps sceneistä ja se ei johdu steamista. Harva peli tänä päivänä ylipäätänsä soveltuu klaani peliksi siten kuin ainakin itse sen koin vuosituhannen vaihteessa. Mikään ei sinäänsä estä pelaajia klaanaamasta edelleen mutta suurin syypää scenen kuoloon on kyllä ihan yksinkertaisesti se ettei kukaan (siis suurin osa meistä) enää käytä IRC:iä joka itsessään oli aikoinaan minun mielestäni kommuunien ja klaani scenen keskeisin pilari. "Codi pennut" on ihan oikeasti yleensä aikuisia (tai melkein aikuisia) normi jannuja joita hyvät scenet oli ennenkin täynnä. Joten kyse on internet käyttäytymisen ilmiöstä joka on vain kestettävä ja siihen on mukauduttava.

Sorry for the finnish.

nothing to see here, move along!

[H1nd]

Ohh an one "last" thing: "zerg rush" has been mentioned many times in this thread. Seriously it does not work in any other game than strarcraft and starcraft 2 and even there it is considered "cheese" wich only works rarely. Maybe in the days of c&c and such like but the common bread rts of these days requires much more thinking than those games of the past. One simply does not zerg rush anything.

[Pelican Pal]

What I wanted to comment on is......is the median age of a "gamer" really 30 these days? Also, define "gamer"? Let's assume, for the sake of simplicity, that we are talking about "video games", and not cardboard games and/or pen&paper games. Do you mean the median age of all Steam users is 30? Or...do you mean the median age of all console + PC gamers is 30? I could almost believe the former, but certainly not the latter, since PC gaming requires a higher investment in hardware than console gaming. I'm also completely ignoring smart phone and tablet gaming.

I find this fascinating. At the very high end of "video gaming" you probably have the flight sim guys who spend thousands of dollars on hardware. I would imagine that the median age of these guys is at least 40. At the low end, you have the 14 year old who's mom & dad bought him the latest console and a couple of games from Wal-Mart for his/her birthday.

Of video gamers in general. Most of the demographic stuff that I have seen has ignored P&P and tabletop folks. PC and consoles combined.

Console release dates:

Nintendo Entertainment System: Released 1985 - 61 million sold

Super Nintendo Entertainment System: Released 1991 - 49 million sold

Nintendo 64: Released 1997 - 32 million sold

PlayStation: Released 1994 - 102 million

PlayStation 2: Released 2000 - 155 million

XBox: Released 2001 - 24 million

That is 423 million consoles sold between 1985 and 2001 (ignoring the considerable number sold by Sega, Atari, 3DO and a number of other companies). Assuming someone was a 10 year old when they got the console they would be somewhere between 38 and 23 right now.

This is also ignoring all PC gamers.

Point is that people grew up with games and they didn't necessarily stop playing them when they got older. Even if only %10 still play games with any regularity that would be nearly half a million people over 23.

A few edits:

This list of million selling game consoles on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_million-selling_game_consoles gets us to 792 million consoles sold from 1976 to 2001. That also expands our age range to 23-47.

I also question how well the word gets out about CM. Mainstream PC magazines/websites don't review the games and as far as I can tell don't mention them in previews. If you look at the CM:RT reviews they were all done by what I would call backwater websites. How does someone who is a casual PC gamer who enjoys strategy games (lets just say they play Company of Heroes, Unity of Command, and Close Combat) how do they find out about CM? I don't know.

[poesel]

Strategy games are not expected to have instant gratification. I think we can agree the potential appeal of CM is to people who like strategy games. I think the difficulty of CM is overstated, particularly if you have played anything like Close Combat. Victoria 2 - that is an example of a difficult game.

I don't think (and said) that CM is more complicated than other strategy games (although CM is not a strategy game). But complex strategy games also have no mass appeal. I wish they would but I have yet to see someone playing such a game on the bus.

So I feel the only valid reasons for keeping CM off Steam are commercial, not to do with how Steam works for people or how the markets for different types of games interact with it. I think it is significant that Matrix have started selling games on it.

Of course we are talking commercial reasons here! What else would BFC stop from removing the DRM and just put up a torrent?

Being on Steam costs money (probably up front, percentage of sales and time) - money which you have to make by selling more of your stuff than you would otherwise. Also count in the loss of sales on your own website which now goes through Steam.

This is my point: I guess that not too many new people would buy through Steam that would not have found BFC sooner or later. So economically Steam does not make sense.

There may be also another point: AFAIK BFC had some bad experience with other publishers. But right now they are doing their own thing on their own time (and doing well). That is something only few people achieve. You don't give that away easily.

I also have and use Steam and I like it