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Specific event: T-34(76mm) vs PIV H (late)


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wadepm - the max thickness of the Panzer IV front even after its early war uparmoring was 50mm. I think the Germans though that 20mm at 72 degrees from vertical was about equivalent protection to that, more vs small projectiles even, and therefore perfectly sufficient. When they added bolted on 30mm plates to the vertical front surfaces they were adding a lot of weight, and they put it where that weight made the most difference. That a small section remained around the 50mm protection level they just accepted - the same as they did for the turret front.

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JonS - it isn't an irrelevant example, it is an overmatch factor of 2, and my whole point is that the linear T/D approximation is already wrong ...

Right. Except that no one - other than you and lostkauz - is working off a linear interpretation*. Vanir has already shown that overmatch is very susceptible to changes in the T/D ratio, and we know that above .5 (i.e., your example) is at the upper end of the range where overmatch has a significant effect.

Further we know that overmatch is non-linear both in terms of T/D and the incident angle.

So, yeah. It's irrelevant.

Jon

* Although, of course, linear interpolation - over small ranges - is fine. And so is linear extrapolation ... over small ranges.

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wadepm,

When the Panzer IV was first designed, its role was functionally the same as a British CS tank. Provide fire support. In the German case, it was for a few Panzer IVs to provide fire support for the far more numerous Panzer IIIs. In the British case, it was to provide support for tanks in the same armored formation as the CS tank was.

Either way, the ordnance side was the same: a relatively low velocity gun capable of firing a useful primary HE round to deal with enemy positions beyond the capability of the Panzer IIIs, which were then armed with a high velocity 37mm possessed of very small HE capability. The Panzer IV wound up being a tank armed with a high velocity gun via a combination of combat demand, status of tank manufacturing and especially because it had a turret ring able to accommodate far heavier armament than could the Panzer III. The Panzer IV ultimately wound up with a potent long 75, whereas the Panzer III's best high velocity gun was only a long 50.

In assessing Panzer IV type design vs that of, say, the T-34, from a production standpoint, it's much easier to design,create jigs for and build an armored box than it is to build a hull not only angled back from the front, but also tapered in from the sides. It's also easier to fit equipment into more traditional spaces. Having lived on a boat, I can tell you that getting themes and variations of cubes and rectangular prisms into spaces anything but is limiting, difficult and complicated. Everything's easier in a design close to our standard rectilinear environments. If you don't believe me, work the problem by analogy in 2-D only. Draw a circle and try to find a good arrangement for your living room furniture. Now, imagine if you had to layer it with other rooms and contents of multiple sizes. That's the tank design problem at the conceptual level. Is there a ballistic protection advantage derived from using sloped armor? Indeed, but the downsides are numerous and expensive up and down the line.

Regards,

John Kettler

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