A question and plea

[zmoney]

I truly wish there was some way to deal with mines better. My question is, is it impossible to code to make mines disappear from an action square?

Second question, why even have the command mark mines? From what I have seen since CMSF days is it is a waste engineers time because they don't actually clear the mines or mark them for their buddies to see. Does it simulate engineers putting up warning signs around the area? If so the signs should be included in their equip panel . I am seriously annoyed every time one of my vehicles hits a mine in the road, I send some engineers to clear that action square of mines (mark mines), then send another vehicle through that same square (after it was marked) with a slow command only to have it blow up just like the first did before it was supposedly marked.

Notice I am only talking about vehicle mines which are large and would be easy for trained engineers to find and disarm if they knew exactly where to look (10 x 10 action square or however big it is).

This is probably my least favorite/ most un-realistic aspect of the game since CMSF, in my opinion.

[weta_nz]

Is anything easy when you are under fire? (Which happens a lot in CMs tactical battles). Of course I know nothing about clearing mines - so you maybe right

[Michael Emrys]

Clearing mines is a slow process if done by hand. Thus, as a practical matter it is beyond the time limits of a typical CM engagement and is not even modeled in the game. Finding and marking a safe path through a minefield is also a slow process, although quicker than disarming and lifting mines, so it is included, but may require several turns to take effect. This is for AP mines. Since a safe path for personnel on foot can be much narrower and thus faster to mark, I'm not sure if marking a safe path for vehicles can be accomplished in any reasonable time in the game. Perhaps someone with more experience who has looked more deeply into the issue can clarify it here.

Michael

[Holman]

Second question, why even have the command mark mines? From what I have seen since CMSF days is it is a waste engineers time because they don't actually clear the mines or mark them for their buddies to see. Does it simulate engineers putting up warning signs around the area? If so the signs should be included in their equip panel .

As a rule of thumb, moving through unmarked mines will kill soldiers while moving at Slow or Hunt through marked mines will not. It makes all the difference in the world if the mines endanger a critical path. If you have another decent route, just ignore and avoid them.

This is probably my least favorite/ most un-realistic aspect of the game since CMSF, in my opinion.

Marking mines is realistic. Removing them on this timescale would be unrealistic.

[zmoney]

The engineers were not under fire, so no problem there. Another thing, I am not talking about a huge area. I am talking about a specific small square area that can be searched fairly easily, especially when looking for vehicle mines which will not activate when a human is standing on them. So really in the two minutes they take now there is plenty of time plus or minus a minute or two especially if all you are doing is clearing a smaller path through the already small square.

I am not talking about land mines meant for people, nor am I talking about a large area. Plus the particular instance I am talking about the road was narrow with thick forrest on either side so it couldn't be avoided. Lastly all of you who responded are really ok with the current handling of mine non-clearance?:confused:

[MikeyD]

Not to be glib, but minefields are what they are. I recall one anecdote (perhaps from Belton Cooper?) about a road that had been swept for mines, then heavy convoy traffic had flowed down it in one direction all day long. Finally when a jeep was permitted to drive down it from the opposite direction they touched off an undiscovered mine and everyone in the vehicle was killed. I recall one US tank commanders guide from 1943 that said during an offensive you were to open a path through a minefield by driving through the minefield! If you lost 4-5-6 tanks in the process the following tanks would at least then be beyond the obstacle. You can see why they went to the expense of inventing the flail tank. :eek:

[LukeFF]

You can see why they went to the expense of inventing the flail tank. :eek:

Mine-rolling & flail tanks would be very nice to see one day, especially since all the Allied nations employed them in one way or another.

[Holman]

The point of minefields wasn't just a sneaky sudden kill but (in fact especially) to deny passage to the enemy. If mines could realistically be eliminated in a few minutes' time, no army would have wasted their time and effort on mines.

Look at it from the soldiers' point of view. They have no reason to assume that the mines you discovered are an isolated action square. They're now aware that mines are present, and they are 500% more wary because of it. If tactically possible, they will want to have nothing to do with the threat zone just discovered. They'll go elsewhere.

I think this is realism.

[zmoney]

Martry, I can dig what you're saying, but then why have the mark mine command at all? And an area as small as 8x8 can be cleared fairly quickly, I have done it granted it was in training but same same.

My next point is, the particular mission was playing was a German counter attack against the Soviets that had just arrived in the area. So the mines they laid probably wouldn't be to hard to see by someone on foot even if concealed by leafs etc.

[Holman]

Martry, I can dig what you're saying, but then why have the mark mine command at all?

The Mark Mines command has a definite in-game effect:

When mines are first discovered, the space is given a small "mine" indicator--the mines are known to exist but no path has been marked. After successful execution of a Mark Mines order, the status of the mines changes; you can see this in the changed indicator on the space.

Units moving at a moderate speed through a Marked Mines space will be much less likely to set off mines than if the mines were known but not yet marked.

My next point is, the particular mission was playing was a German counter attack against the Soviets that had just arrived in the area. So the mines they laid probably wouldn't be to hard to see by someone on foot even if concealed by leafs etc.

That's more a matter of scenario design than game mechanics. All mines in CMx2 are treated as buried and hidden. Maybe the Soviet engineers were busy little bees because they knew you would be back.

[Bulletpoint]

The Mark Mines command has a definite in-game effect:

[...]

Units moving at a moderate speed through a Marked Mines space will be much less likely to set off mines than if the mines were known but not yet marked.

He's asking about tank mines. Marking them doesn't change the risk of blowing up when driving over them.

I think that in real life, various explosives were used to clear narrow paths through a minefield, bangalore torpedoes and such. If that is beyond the scope of the game or not I will leave up to more knowledgeable people do say.

All mines in CMx2 are treated as buried and hidden.

Actually I started thinking that mines are treated from the outset as clearly marked in this game. After all, your troops are able to spot minefields, and when they do, they will find a German signpost clearly stating "Achtung! Minen!"

If minefields were truly unmarked by the people who planted them, there's no way anyone would spot them just by sitting next to the minefield for a minute or two (ok, they could represent booby-traps etc. above ground too)

[Collingwood]

Clearing mines is a slow process if done by hand.

Very slow. Interestingly Engineers spent more time removing/clearing mines they had themselves laid, than enemy mines. Even with a map of where the mines were laid it was a process that could easily consume hours of time and occasionally someone would be killed.

To add to the fun, sometimes a minefield would be lifted and they would realize one or two mines were not accounted for, and despite best efforts couldn't be found. Yet a scheduled attack was due to roll through the 'cleared' area.

[Holman]

Actually I started thinking that mines are treated from the outset as clearly marked in this game. After all, your troops are able to spot minefields, and when they do, they will find a German signpost clearly stating "Achtung! Minen!"

If minefields were truly unmarked by the people who planted them, there's no way anyone would spot them just by sitting next to the minefield for a minute or two (ok, they could represent booby-traps etc. above ground too)

I believe the little "Achtung!" signs are an abstraction to indicate that you *now* know mines are present. If mines were clearly marked from the start, they would be much easier to spot (except the hard way). As it is, even engineers might sit next to a mine spot for several turns before the little sign appears.

[Michael Emrys]

I believe the little "Achtung!" signs are an abstraction to indicate that you *now* know mines are present. If mines were clearly marked from the start, they would be much easier to spot (except the hard way). As it is, even engineers might sit next to a mine spot for several turns before the little sign appears.

True. Most of the time an enemy mine patch is only discovered by setting one off with resulting casualties. If you absolutely have to travel via that AS and have engineers, bring them up and wait while they do their thing. Otherwise, as has already been suggested, find another route and hope that it won't be mined too.

Michael