"Red Hordes"-results and impressions to the game(play)

[panzerde]

That they continue to prosecute their orders in the face of 50% casualties says more about the morale rules, I feel, than the MG's effectiveness.

If anything needs adjusting I'd say it's this rather than MG effectiveness. Units persist in attacking with casualty rates far in excess of what happened in actual engagements. There are good reasons for this (I've read the casualty threads over the years) but I think it only highlights how effective MGs are.

I also suspect that anyone that thinks MGs are plenty effective in this thread are mostly talking among themselves, unfortunately.

[Childress]

That they continue to prosecute their orders in the face of 50% casualties says more about the morale rules, I feel, than the MG's effectiveness.

It certainly does. Were they fanatical Hitlerjugend?

[womble]

Nope. Morale and Leadership were Normal and zero respectively. Some Green, some Regular. They did end up in a pretty bad morale state once they'd reached the sactuary behind the wall. With 130 casualties, every squad and team was Broken. At 100 casualties, it was about 50/50 Rattled/Broken. I didn't watch every turn to see the amount of "Shaken" icons transiently generated, but I suspect mostly the casualties were spread around enough that "Broken" was accumulated from casualties sustained across a given Platoon.

[Childress]

BF needs, imo, to revisit morale resiliency and consequent casualty inflation some day. But such an overhaul would likely require wholesale reconfiguration of existing scenarios in all three games. I'm tellin' ya, CMBB had it right.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I'm tellin' ya, CMBB had it right.

LOL, while reading this thread I was just thinking to myself "what these people really want is CMBB ver. 1.0".

Unfortunately for you guys that proved to be not very popular.

[Childress]

LOL, while reading this thread I was just thinking to myself "what these people really want is CMBB ver. 1.0".

Unfortunately for you guys that proved to be not very popular.

Which do you mean? The Game or the punitive morale system?

[Vanir Ausf B]

Moral system.

[Kauz]

.... I'm tellin' ya, CMBB had it right.

I liked CM:BB very much....but already in this game i always thought how weak LMG and HMG are both modelled. (addionally i did not see any big firepower difference of the StG44 at 100/250 meters in relation to a MP or a K98. You could still use the MP40....no need for a StG44.

In CM:RT at least the HMG seems NOW to be more useful than in CM:BB...So at least there is an improvement.

After CM:BB, CM:AK came out and i especially laughed loud how the game modelled the abstract firepower of a BAR and a Bren in relation to the MG34/42.

But this is all old stuff....i just can hope that CM:RT is going to do it better ...

[Vanir Ausf B]

(addionally i did not see any big firepower difference of the StG44 at 100/250 meters in relation to a MP or a K98. You could still use the MP40....no need for a StG44.

When you say you "did not see" are you referring to test results or casual observation?

[Childress]

Morale system.

You're right, it was very unpopular on the forum. At first. Womble's 260m assault would only advanced a few dozen meters before going to ground under BB constraints. Properly, I submit.

[Apocal]

For someone who didn't play CMBB enough to notice, what was the morale system like in 1.0?

[Vanir Ausf B]

Infantry were very hard to move while under fire, nearly impossible for regular quality troops. They pinned quickly and stayed that way until the shooting moved elsewhere. They also tended to rout under sustained fire even when not taking casualties. Some people felt it was the most realistic modeling of infantry behavior under fire BFC has ever done, but it was highly controversial. Right or wrong, BFC gave the grunts stiffer spines in the first patch.

One of the many threads on the subject:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=55492&highlight=infantry

[Skwabie]

I tried the M1917A1 and the MG42 on test maps.

Area firing at 1000m, the M1917A1 fires in 3-6 rounds burst; the MG42 fires in 4-7 rounds burst.

Since the MG42 ROF is twice, maybe a longer burst is better. With the short burst the fire volumn advantage indeed doesn't quite show imo.

But still, does anyone with the relevant knowledge with a high rof machine gun, nowadays say an MG3, know the correct military doctrine in using it? Short bursts that keep the aimpoint under constant adjust, or longer bursts for a better area effect?

[Kauz]

When you say you "did not see" are you referring to test results or casual observation?

I never saw power difference in battle...then i took a look on the abstract fire tables in the game and could just see why ...the StG44 in CM:BB had "no" advantages on 100-250 meters.

I do not have the game installed where i am actually are. so please do it yourself and compare MP40, K98k and StG44 on the several distances.

About the general use of the Stg44:

At short distances up to 50 meters i would expect that the StG44 could be used like a MP40. Depending on the situation/firemission you may frequently use small firebursts. Either to stop assaulting enemies or you try to supress enemy in a house/windows. Then your 3-4 times higher penetration power of the StG44 (compare to the Mp40) can be an advantage.

Disadvantage is the higher recoil.

So on distances on about 100 meters it is more convinient to fire single shots.

Depending on how far he is, how many are running with him or if he is hidden or not you fire fast or take more time to aim with the single shots.

So.... on distances on 100-250 meters you use it more like an semi automatically rifle.

But the advantage is that you have less recoil than with an semi-auto and so you can aim easier and shoot faster the single rounds on after the other than you may would do with a G43.

Because of the higher rate of fire of accurate single shots and the bigger magazin there should be a remarkable firepower difference to a G43...not speaking K98

In CM:BB there is no fire power advantage. The given numbres of MP40, K98, StG44 on distances beginning with 100 meters do not make sense anymore.

In CM:RT like we all know there are no real amount of StG 44 anymore instead of that you will find the G43 in "masses" which was not presented in CM:BB.

Once i had the luck to see one StG44 in action. It were on distances between 20- 100 meters. It always was simulated like the Mp40...fireing quite long bursts (about 3-7 rounds if i remember right). Not a single time i saw him fireing single shots.

-----------------------------------

Fast search:

At: 4:04-4:07

you will see him fireing bursts.

At: 4:32-4:36

you will see them fireing SINGLE shots fast one after the other.

-----------

Other video:

At 1:50-2:07:

Here you can get an impression of the accuray if someone is trying to shoot at 114 meters while standing.

He took a lot of time for aiming.

But in case of laying down you can see in videos before how fast the people shot the single shots because they used the Magazin as fix-point. It helped aiming with the iron sights.

But better we discuss the whole thing in another thread.

This thread is actually more an MG thread....would be bad if we dilute this thread.

[Kauz]

I tried the M1917A1 and the MG42 on test maps.

Area firing at 1000m, the M1917A1 fires in 3-6 rounds burst; the MG42 fires in 4-7 rounds burst.Since the MG42 ROF is twice, maybe a longer burst is better. With the short burst the fire volumn advantage indeed doesn't quite show imo....

Support that.

...

But still, does anyone with the relevant knowledge with a high rof machine gun, nowadays say an MG3, know the correct military doctrine in using it? Short bursts that keep the aimpoint under constant adjust, or longer bursts for a better area effect?

Fast search for heavy machine gun.

The distance is unknown, but i guess 500-1000 meters because of the longer bursts and the optics:

Regarding the light MG3:

Then i was shooting the light MG3 on the army, i was ordered to fire short bursts

Minimum 2 rounds, Maximum 7 rounds.

Regulary 3-5 round bursts.

The first 3 rounds of a burst are quite close together, round 4-5 is spread more and 6-7 even more. For more information look at my post quite at the beginnging of the thread (Schützenschnur "bronze").

Only gunners with a higher weight or higher power could press themselves so hard into the machine gun that the accuracy could be hold for 1-2 rounds more. So not only the first 3 rounds were quite accurate (then up to 5 rounds)

If the enemy soldiers are closer or dense and you are skilled you can swing the gun from one side to the other with your longer bursts. But if you ever would fire more than 10 round bursts is very unlikely (only if a enemy horde is already assaulting your position between "0" and 20 meters.)

Fireing longer burst with MG3 and being accurate like a "Laser" you can only provide with the heavy mounting tripod.

Additional to the video at the beginning of this post you might take a look at the other links i posted in this thread.

I never shoot the heavy mounting myself. I only know that the bursts are around 25.

Shorter bursts are only useful if you fight a single hidden target, want to save ammo and want to find the right aiming first.

Longer burst on a single target i guess you use if you have the right aiming/distance or you fire on long ranges 800-1200.

Longer bursts on short or medium ranges are usefull if you swing the gun from one side to the other and so dispensing the rounds either to ensure to hit a single target or to increase hitprobability on more people running in the same area.

But i will do a research on the Bundeswehr orders for heavy machine gun to ensure i am not wrong with my guesses related to the heavy MG.

[Kauz]

For someone who didn't play CMBB enough to notice, what was the morale system like in 1.0?

As rule of a thumb:

If you not only wanted to suppress a enemy squad/group (entrenched) but get them (routed/)killed you had to use the combined fire of about a company.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I never saw power difference in battle...then i took a look on the abstract fire tables in the game and could just see why ...the StG44 in CM:BB had "no" advantages on 100-250 meters.

It is not clear how relevant CMx1 firepower ratings are to CMx2.

I do not have the game installed where i am actually are. so please do it yourself and compare MP40, K98k and StG44 on the several distances.

That may be an interesting test, but unfortunately there are no German units equipped entirely with MP40s that I am aware of. They are always mixed in with other weapons in a squad, so isolating their effects would be difficult.

Once i had the luck to see one StG44 in action.

That is not a solid basis for an opinion.

[Kauz]

It is not clear how relevant CMx1 firepower ratings are to CMx2...

I do not know either how CM:BB fire tables are a base for CM:RT. But this was not the topic.

That may be an interesting test, but unfortunately there are no German units equipped entirely with MP40s that I am aware of. They are always mixed in with other weapons in a squad, so isolating their effects would be difficult.

...

Yep difficult.... There are no units with huge amounts of MP 40 or StG44 anymore/actually in CM:RT like they were in CM:BB.

Instead of that a lot of units with just standard (1 MP, 1 MG, rest K98 and additionaly sometimes some G43 which were not even represented in CM:BB)

So we can not do any tests....

...

That is not a solid basis for an opinion.

I do not know what you mean....i only said that the once i saw a StG44 in action in CM:RT i did not see him firing single shots....only quite long bursts and so only used like the MP40 .

That is all.....

An observation ...and 1 observation is better than 0 observation.

[womble]

That may be an interesting test, but unfortunately there are no German units equipped entirely with MP40s that I am aware of. They are always mixed in with other weapons in a squad, so isolating their effects would be difficult.

Scout teams do. So three three-man scout teams should be comparable to a 9-man SturmGrenadier squad.

[Kauz]

Scout teams do. So three three-man scout teams should be comparable to a 9-man SturmGrenadier squad.

good point....how about the StG 44....did you find any units with any/higher amount?

[Kauz]

Found another video .... LONGER bursts.

One target getting shot you can watch:

@ 0:19-0:22:

[Apocal]

Found another video .... LONGER bursts.

One target getting shot you can watch:

@ 0:19-0:22:

I'm not sure why you keep posting videos on a forum full of people who've fired machine guns, including some in combat...

[Kauz]

I'm not sure why you keep posting videos on a forum full of people who've fired machine guns, including some in combat...

If you follow the discussion you see a lot of people saying the heavy machine gun was inaccurate (especially with longer bursts and longer distance) and people who do not know that the heavy machine gun is used to be fireing especially longer burst up to 25 rounds.

So i guess the videos are information and proof at the same time for the people who do not seem have any idea of these weapons.

[womble]

good point....how about the StG 44....did you find any units with any/higher amount?

SturmGrenadier squad troopers are each armed with one StG/MP44. Can't get any more than that. That's why I said 9 Scouts would be comparable.

[76mm]

If you follow the discussion you see a lot of people saying the heavy machine gun was inaccurate (especially with longer bursts) and people who do not know that the heavy machine gun is used to be fireing especially longer burst up to 25 rounds.

Actually I haven't seen this "lot of people" in this thread. I think the point is that showing performance on a firing range is pointless when we are taking about combat performance.