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"Red Hordes"-results and impressions to the game(play)


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Funnily enough the latest test had the soviets lose just 12 (!) men when assaulting an entrenched HMG across 400+ m of completely open space.

Something's definitely screwy. I just had an M1917 US HMG behind a sandbag wall splatter 32 men out of two Sicherungs Companies (186 men - just the rifle squads and HQs) over the 2 minutes it took them to close to range zero. I had the advancing Germans as Fanatic so they'd obey their cover arcs.

When they don't have a cover arc and can fire back because they're on "Assault" orders moving by bounds, the HMG gets suppressed and starts taking casualties and causes half the casualties over three times as long, eventually getting wiped out when the MP40s get within 100m.

With no holdfire orders and one long Quick move leg, the Fanatics were basically stopped at 90s, 100m short of their objective. All the squads bar one had ceased to advance because of suppression; their movement destinations were significantly further on. Of course this meant they could all fire at the MG, and it got KOed, which I'd consider a "fluke shot" given the incoming was all small arms. The Germans lost 21 men, and that would have been higher except for the fire from the teams that had stopped advancing making the gun crew Cower.

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Something's definitely screwy. I just had an M1917 US HMG behind a sandbag wall splatter 32 men out of two Sicherungs Companies (186 men - just the rifle squads and HQs) over the 2 minutes it took them to close to range zero. I had the advancing Germans as Fanatic so they'd obey their cover arcs.

When they don't have a cover arc and can fire back because they're on "Assault" orders moving by bounds, the HMG gets suppressed and starts taking casualties and causes half the casualties over three times as long, eventually getting wiped out when the MP40s get within 100m.

With no holdfire orders and one long Quick move leg, the Fanatics were basically stopped at 90s, 100m short of their objective. All the squads bar one had ceased to advance because of suppression; their movement destinations were significantly further on. Of course this meant they could all fire at the MG, and it got KOed, which I'd consider a "fluke shot" given the incoming was all small arms. The Germans lost 21 men, and that would have been higher except for the fire from the teams that had stopped advancing making the gun crew Cower.

... :eek: ...

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... :eek: ...

Meaning what? My assessment is that HMGs are more effective than you seem to think they are. I have no idea what conditions you're applying that makes them so. Or perhaps it's your expectations that are out of whack? I'd expect 180 Fanatic rifles to overwhelm 1 MG, especially when firing and moving (the Assault move trial). As a "Normal" morale MG (Regular, zero leadership; not in C2), it really didn't take much incoming fire to get their heads down below the sandbag parapet.

After tea, I'll do a test where the MG stays in C2, see if that helps up the casualty figure as well.

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wondered that the MG 1917 is so OP under these conditions you told....looks like german weapons are underpowered ..

What distance they starttheir advance on your MG position?

Do the same thing with sicherungs guys (blue vs blue in CMRT) against a hMg42 and then tell me please your results

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As a serial lurker who has barely posted here but has learned such a great deal on these boards I'd just like to briefly interject to show my appreciation.

Not only of the tips/info/wisdom/explanations I have been able to absorb and then utilise or discard, but also (with notable exceptions - then I grab some popcorn) the patience, generosity and decency with which it is generally shared and given. And that (obviously) includes Steve and the guys. Thanks. Call me a fanboi (is that right?).

I may of course be looking through 'la vie en rose' (Côtes du Rhône since you ask - anniversary of VE Day, my excuse and I'm sticking to it...hic).

Cheers everyone :D

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Hi guys,

I've been testing and posting on hmgs in the past. I tested the rate of fire of all the teams and hmgs in cmbn at different distances. There was some fight with the efficiency of hmgs. I even tried a comparison with CMBO. In the end, BFC did some modification and i can say that the game is totally different now.

Today on a QB, map 081, with 2 bridges to defend. After 22 mn of combat, one hmg 42 inflicted 33 casualties and the other 23. In situations like that i had more than 45 casualties inflicted by only one hmg in more than one QB.

Moving on the open ground was possible in version one of the game. Now it's a bad idea and i had the occasion to pin infantry with only 2 or 3 hmgs at more than 700 m in game. In fact they have effect at far more longer range, up to 2000 m if i remember well the test i did in the past.

First, like in real life, the placement is very important. Try cross fire, with trps and your ennemy will have a bad day. I 've seen tests made by real hmgs gunners in real life with a vickers hmg on a tv show. It's hard to stop an attack from the front. Lots of bullets miss the target and the enemy can com e close. On the flank it's on the contrary devastating. Using hmgs at 100/200 m is not a good idea in CMRT, and in general. The russians have an advantage at that range and i use to withdraw when they come under 250 m to keep my advantage in firepower.

In my QB today, hmgs were at 400 m of the bridges and with both area and target fire, i inflicted 56 casulaties in short time. I had one riflemen company and use only hmgs and i stopped the attack. Without tanks or arty support, no way to cross those bridges. The best i did was more than 50 casualties for one hmg in a QB.

For tanks, everything is not perfect, but it's way better than it was especially in city fight. Try CMBN 1.0 and now and you'll see 2 different games.

Before, assaulting a city with tanks was possible, now it's a suicide. If you have a good map with ruins, walls etc, tanks are just blind targets. Even in the open, with some cover i had good results in assaulting tanks with infantry.

Some things may be improved with fortifications, but i did not tested it.

All i can say is that BFC improved a lot the game for small weapons fire and tanks. Not perfect, but a good representation of the battlefield, with the limitations that games have. And it's the best tactical wargame i've ever played, by far.

Regards

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looks like german weapons are underpowered ..

It's true. And it's on purpose. The game is made by Americans that try to alter history by downplaying the heroic efforts of engineers of the Reich.

(Almost without exception in my games MG42s rack up the largest casualty counts after direct and indirect HE)

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Do the same thing with sicherungs guys (blue vs blue in CMRT) against a hMg42 and then tell me please your results

Gah. Good idea, the Blue-on-blue thing... I'll maybe have chance sometime tomorrow. But I can't see the MG42 being any worse.

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But back to the specific MG problem.

Like i said ....till now i did a lot of testing ...and never were able to produce more than 18-20 kills with HMG.

Try it yourself. Let the enemy attack a small bridge and put an HMG in a position 150meters in front of it and let them rush over it.

I would expect that an heavy MG42 with 1500 rpm theoretically and 460 rpm practically and a 250 round belt for start is easily able to kill everybody running over the bridge trying to reach the other side.

Just take the map "Town-Water Assault 079" ....try it...... you will see.

And after that please make always a screenshot in case you can achieve more than 20 kills with a HMG within 30-60 minute standard map. Till now all my trials to increase the effectiveness of (H)MG were useless.

Well I took you up on your offer - I should have been working and at least my PBEM partners would have preferred I play their turns but I wanted to see just what the MG42 performance was like in CMRT.

I used the map you suggested. I setup a trench work across the road about 160m from the bridge and put a squad (two MG42s) in the trench to harass the advance etc. Then I put two HMGs off to the sides one to the right 300m+ back in some woods and another one 250m back in a house. The HMG kill zone is on the German side of the bridge. Frankly with the way the terrain works here I think I would have tried created the kill zone on the Soviet side of the bridge but you said it was too easy to cross the bridge, so...

I was setting things up quick and it turns out the HMGs did not have good visibility to the bridge but OK on the German side of it. And the blocking squad in the trench had a good field of fire way up the road past the bridge. I also had the other two squads from the platoon in reserve and they ended up having LOF to the bridge too. Once I realized that I pulled them back.

The Soviets had a battalion attacking (I used a couple mortars but not the AT guns etc). Yep a battalion vs a squad and two HMGs. After the first company was shredded and useless I ordered a mortar barage of the blocking squad's trenches otherwise I wondered if any of the Soviets would get across the bridge. It turns out that a few of the second company did make it across before the mortars took out the blocking squad.

First attackers reach the bridge. This was after quite a few minutes and I had to force them to do it over and over. They were taking casualties.

TwoHMGSetup01Co1MovingUp.jpg

They got turned back.

TwoHMGSetup02Co1TurnedAround.jpg

And suffered even more.

TwoHMGSetup03Co1RunningAway.jpg

I tried to move up the extra German squads but they just got caught in the open and never made it into position. As the second and third companies crossed the bridge it was all down to the HMG teams. The German defenders took out a huge number of attackers. Once the blocking squad was removed though attackers were able to trickle over the bridge and once they were in the town the were able to get close and eventually take out the HMG teams. The mortar attack did cause a bunch of friendly fire casualties though because I timed the run on the trench system and the cease fire of the mortars poorly - oops.

You can dl the QB saves (two player hot seat with no passwords): http://www.lesliesoftware.com/forforumposts/2014/TwoHMGSetup.zipx

Here is what I found. The squad level MG42s put out a nice 100 rounds per minute at the peak of the first company of Soviets trying to cross. The HGMs put out between 60 and 70 rounds per minute. before you got getting all excited about that those HMGs had pretty marginal LOF to the bridge so I actually think they did pretty well given the very small kill zone I gave them.

The results after about 19 minutes of fighting:

Left HGM team 26 kills

Right HGM team 19 kills

Left Blocking team 24 kills (but they were dead at the 10-12 minute mark)

Right Blocking team 36 kills (again taken out early just ahead of the other team)

These German teams 105 almost all down to the four MG42s.

If I had tried this with one Soviet company I would have failed.

Of course I also would not have tried to run guys straight into this meat grinder either. I would have used scouts to find the enemy position and then suppressed them as best I could before calling in the mortars then I would have smoked my way into the town. But hey I think this shows that the MG42 is pretty damn deadly and any one facing it should be careful and not go running around in the open.

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Ok, now we got the MG' covered, lets talk about the real hardcore stuff.

Badass fanatic assault tank-crews attacking fortified positions even after the own infantry got routed !

Will this issue ever be solved ?

It totally destroys the immersion for me, always at the end of a battle all those tank-crew rambos trying to kill my pixeltruppen !

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....

The results after about 19 minutes of fighting:

Left HGM team 26 kills

Right HGM team 19 kills

Left Blocking team 24 kills (but they were dead at the 10-12 minute mark)

Right Blocking team 36 kills (again taken out early just ahead of the other team)

These German teams 105 almost all down to the four MG42s.

If I had tried this with one Soviet company I would have failed.

Of course I also would not have tried to run guys straight into this meat grinder either. I would have used scouts to find the enemy position and then suppressed them as best I could before calling in the mortars then I would have smoked my way into the town. But hey I think this shows that the MG42 is pretty damn deadly and any one facing it should be careful and not go running around in the open.

Your results simply support my saying. You had 2 hMG and 2 lMG if i see it right which produce the (few) casualties i already told.

(and additionally nobody can say which of these casualties where caused for example by MP40 fire ...especially at your close infantry squads)

In my opinion 1 (ONE) single heavy machine gun would be enough to prevent an movement over the bridge as long as it is fireing.

So in case nobody is able to suppress your machine gun, it would produce a volume of fire of 460 rpm practically/statiscally (included reloading, barrel change and spotting/aiming, jams) and 1500 rpm theoretically. It starts with a 250 round belt which simply can be supplemented with aditional belts while fireing. If necessary (it would destroy the barrel or at least the precision for later tasks) you could fire about 300 rounds sustained fire before a barrel change is really necessary. Even in case you need finally a barrel change ...it only would take 5-7 seconds. The enemy would not even recognize that you are doing it, because it could be one of the fire breaks you are doing while he is laying down on earth and is not even thinking of entering bridge becuase of the former casualties.

So in real life you can fire longer without barrel change because you just fire 5-50 rounds bursts to kill and supress enemy movement. And only need to fire again if you see movement on the bridge again. Additionally your weapon cools down a little and that delays yours barrel change schedule, too.

The bridge is such a small field of fire that it is no problem to spot/kill/supress anyone trying to pass it.

Nobody would stand a change trying to run over the bridge.....

It is even more easy than the machine gun rape fests in world war I, when machine guns had to manage big fronts/waves of infantry assaults.

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Badass fanatic assault tank-crews attacking fortified positions even after the own infantry got routed !

Will this issue ever be solved ?

It totally destroys the immersion for me, always at the end of a battle all those tank-crew rambos trying to kill my pixeltruppen !

Are you really seeing this happen? Bailed tank crew moral was lowered ages ago. When my tank crews bail they are typically in a "panic" state and stay that way for several turns.

What can still happen is that if there is friendly infantry very near the tank the bailing crew will sometimes engage them while retreating and inflict casualties. I consider it to be a very minor issue at worst, but some people get really bent out of shape over it.

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Are you really seeing this happen? Bailed tank crew moral was lowered ages ago. When my tank crews bail they are typically in a "panic" state and stay that way for several turns.

What can still happen is that if there is friendly infantry very near the tank the bailing crew will sometimes engage them while retreating and inflict casualties. I consider it to be a very minor issue at worst, but some people get really bent out of shape over it.

Overall I'd agree. There is one area though where it can be disconcerting. I had an example last night. I close assaulted a tank with an SMG team. They destroyed the tank and the crew bailed. 5 guys with SMGs having just destroyed the tank suffered 3 casualties to the crew as they bailed.

The increased ability for infantry to close assault armor leads to more incidents of infantry being in close proximity to crews as they bail. One would think the crew would likely surrender and we aren't talking fanatic elite crews. I'm wary of asking it be tweaked too far as there could likely be other unintended consequences, but bailing crews are still pretty deadly for close assaulting forces.

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I still see the occasional vehicle crew moving in a "non-retrograde" fashion in the turns after their ride has been vaped. My impression is that the "Plan" orders to advance are still being applied to the dismounted crews, so every time a new order comes into effect, the crews get a "shove" forward. But I've not investigated it much.

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I didn't bother with the in-C2 test. Went straight to Blue-on-Blue.

No fire from advancing riflemen

The MG 42 stopped the 2 companies (Fanatic, remember) more effectively than the M1917 did. Not even one team got closer than 100m. Around 25-30 casualties inflicted in 2 minutes. Anyone moving was in danger. The MG42 was taking out 2, 3 and even 4 men in one burst. 4/6 Platoons had gone to ground in the first minute. Going to ground meant they took no more casualties from the bursts aimed at the moving troops.

Suppression because of fear of death is very real when you're running across an open field at an emplaced HMG without trying to suppress it. 13% casualties across 2 companies in 2 minutes is a military disaster. With one company advancing and the others hiding at the start line, they got from 350m to 165m and lost the same number of men. 25 men out of 93. In 75s. That's devastating losses. In the last 45s when none of the troops were upright, they lost precisely no men. Good reason to go to ground.

Assaulting, fire and movement

As the range dropped to below about 300m, the aimed, deliberate fire of 80 or so rifles was enough to severely hamper the MG team going about its business. And once 2 or 3 A Teams got within MP40 range, that was pretty much it for outgoing fire from the MG42. It took 8 minutes for the two companies to overwhelm the maching gun nest, but they took 18 casualties doing it. Assaulting with just one company, the casualties were fewer, but that could just have been variability. Again, most of these were inflicted at >300m, before the infantry's rifle fire was effective at suppressing the nest, and once an MP40 or two reached 100m, the combined rifle and SMG fire was enough to perma-Pin the MG42.

Comparing MG42 to M1917

The MG42 caused a few more casualties. Its suppression effect though was noticeably greater.

If the assaulters weren't Fanatics, it would have been more difficult. If the assault had begun from further away, similarly. The nearest elements started only about 380m from the gun. Most of the time, they didn't get 50m before being pinned, but the elements that started at 420m used the time their battalion-mates were getting shot up to get within effective rifle range.

As a final test (for now at least) I chivvied Normal motivation troops at Quick into the teeth of the MG42. They lost a similar number of men over a longer period of time, because they dropped their TAs in self-preservation and started suppressing the MG nest.

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I still see the occasional vehicle crew moving in a "non-retrograde" fashion in the turns after their ride has been vaped. My impression is that the "Plan" orders to advance are still being applied to the dismounted crews, so every time a new order comes into effect, the crews get a "shove" forward. But I've not investigated it much.

Thats what i think happens.

Crew bails out -> large moral hit -> retreats -> new order and crew has recovered -> Crew attacks MG42 position and Tiger tank with SMG and pistols...

Is it impossible for Battlefrontto fix ?

Why not give them a that huge moral hit so they are very likely (80%) of routing and leaving the Battlefield ?

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I made a quick test.

I wanted to get an idea what the maximum firepower of Heavy Machine guns (42) is.

I took again the Town-Water assault 079 map but modified it that way he can only assault via the stone bridge.

Like i already mentioned i thought that a single HMG even on high distance should be easily able to block enemy movement over the bridge.

The HMG´s optics, the additional binoculars and a free line of fire at daylight should it make easy to spot instant any movement on that small area of the stone bridge.

The effective range of HMG in direct fire is often mentioned with 1000-1200 meters which is twice of a light machine gun (bipod).

If you take a look on the accuracy(low spread) of the following MG34 video (starting at 0:36) you can imagine that the firepower is only/mainly decreased by not being able to spot an enemy on high distance:

You can just choose if you want to pinpoint a specific area or if you want to spread the amount bullets of a burst in an area while swinging the gun in horizontal way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N59msUnyy1g

I bought some trenches, a company HQ, a MG-HQ and the 4x heavy Machine guns 42 ....all ELITE, FANATIC, max ammo, and max leadership

Despite the small and easy bridge-target which should it make easy to spot every running man on it....despite the Elite factor and 2+ leadership, despite the gun optics and additional binoculars of such a MG unit, despite the right facing and set fire arcs, despite the optimal field of view and good visibility, i wanted to ENSURE that NOBODY is just able to run over the bridge and got not seen. ( and you know that happens a lot ;) )

So i intended to shorten the distance for my machine guns to about 100-300 meters in hope to ensure that even a blind man is able to see a Golem on the bridge.

2x HMGs i positioned in a trench about 110 meters in front of the bridge. I hoped that the 110 meters and the trench would provide enough protection against occasional PPSH spray (this hope was wrong like i recognized...ppsh are very accurate and infantry in trench just shows to much of its body and so they get hit quite easy; 1 to maximal 3 ocassional bursts are enough to kill 1 guy in the trench).

Machine gun 1 (111 meter big fire arc):

http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3617/rxa4eoks_jpg.htm

Machine gun 2 (111 meter small fire arc):

http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3617/rmy9j7qg_jpg.htm

Machine gun 3 (on higher level of the street; at 320 meter; big fire arc):

http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3617/p2vmqs6s_jpg.htm

Machine gun 4 (on higher level of the street; 320 meters; small fire arc):

http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3617/sqt5ijw9_jpg.htm

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Machine gun 5 (semi left flank; 3rd floor in house; 145 meters; big fire arc):

http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3617/3pv6v9rq_jpg.htm

Machine gun 6 (semi right flank, 2nd floor in house; 210 meters; big fire arc):

http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3617/ljueezv7_jpg.htm

The MG-HQ got set into same trench like MG 3 & 4 in hope to increase the spotting/fire-leading power of these 320 meters distant MGs:

----------NO picture---

company HQ got set next to MG 1 & 2 mainly because of moral issues:

http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3617/rs2yrkwx_jpg.htm

So.....you may ask what the enemy got?

The enemy was the AI on Iron mode and was allowed to equippe himself for a lot of money in "infantry-only"-mode.

He bought artillery and had 747 men on the field to attack me. (between green and skilled)

In a Human to human gameplay i guess i lost this game very very very very fast after some rounds.....cause already 1 or 2 simple squads are able to suppress or kill a machine gun especially on 100 meters "only" being in a trench. ;)

A machine gun which does not fire, does not kill or suppress...so he is able to advance.

But with this amount of men he could easily just spray me to death and then enter the bridge area.

GOD thx the AI did not do that.....he just did like expected and tried running over the bridge to reach the wooden area on the other side left and right to the bridge.

So i could watch if the MG42 bullets which do not hit the intended target at least kill some other people/squads running around or behind....the high density of men should let that beeing expectable .

Nevertheless these only random/ occasional back fireing soldiers inflicted fast casualties. Some PPSH sprays already were able to kill my entrenched Machine gunners dip by dip. And they did not shoot often....

Machine gun 2 (with the small fire arc) got kille quite fast by this seldom occasional fire and still had a lot of ammo.

http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3617/jnthwol9_jpg.htm

Machine gun 1 managed to fire till all ammo was gone.

-----

Then the game began he put some artillery on me.

Especially a time fused artillery(i guess a 2 tubed heavy artillery in personal attack mode) was able to produce dip by dip up to 11 casualties of the 17 guys in the trench of MGNest 3 & 4.

The explosions were always about 100meters away.

But the good thing was that the machine guns still fired to the end till the ammo was empty.

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Here an example picuture:

http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3617/u3th5nz5_jpg.htm

Machine gun 5 fired all his ammo too and inflicted especially at the beginning some casualties.

Machine gun 6 is empty too and inflicted the most casualties:

So the only MG which did not fired all his rounds were Machine gun 2 because of being killed relativly fast.

The russian were able to pass the bridge after all guns were empty and fight finally against mainly MP40/pistols of company HQ, MG5, MG 6.

After about 60 minutes the round ended by time

Here the results:

http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3617/cnsk4wcu_jpg.htm

and some impressions:

http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3617/l9iz4plp_jpg.htm

http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3617/3h2368c9_jpg.htm

The Results of the Machine guns (distances are to the center of the bridge):

MG 1: 143 "kills" (empty) 110 meter

MG 2: 22 "kills" (not empty because killed soon) 110 meter

MG 3: 44 "kills" (empty) 320 meter

MG 4: 52 "kills" (empty) 320 meter

MG 5: 76 "kills" (empty) 145 meter

MG 6: 157 "kills" (empty) 210 meter

Some people now will say.....WOW...the MGs are devasting....in my opinion it shows exactly the opposite.

ON such short distances and such superb conditions the 4 (FOUR) heavy Elite machine guns fired more than 12500 rounds into the enemy (not counting the MG 2 who was disabled relativly fast and only inflicted 22 casualties) and were only able to inflict 500 casualties and still left 240 guys alive. And that all despite the fact that they all were located and concentrated on a few squaremeters and there was nearly no way to hit NOT someone. :eek:

The best MG killed under these ultra superb conditions with about 2500 rounds only about 150 people. That are about 16-17 rounds per person while you are shooting with a laser accurate gun into a wall of meat....

Most dissappointing were the results of MG 3 & 4 which achieved only about 50 kills each while hammering 5000 rounds into enemy meatball. And that all i guess mostly because for the bad spotting at 320 meters, may be a less accuracy (which should not be the point at that distance) and a less enemy density in relation to MG 5 & 6.

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The best MG killed under these ultra superb conditions with about 2500 rounds only about 150 people. That are about 16-17 rounds per person while you are shooting with a laser accurate gun into a wall of meat....

MG's aren't laser accurate weapons. They are area fire weapons that is how they can kill/suppress multiples of troops at a time under the right circumstances. 16-17 rounds is probably close to realistic, many of those bullets could have struck the same target or ones already hit. Honestly I think your expectations of the MG42 is a little over hyped.

Just a quick explanation of how machine guns work, machine guns fire into what is called a beaten zone where their bullets cover a conical shaped area. That does not mean every inch of the conical area has a bullet in it. An easy example is like an HE explosion and the fragments that the charge emits. Typically not every fragment enters an enemy body same as bullets fired from an MG.

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On another note.... I read somewhere that a study was done that stated to kill an enemy soldier in the Vietnam War something like 10,000 rounds where fired as an average. I assume WW2 had a similar stat and maybe a little googleing could find it.

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