Needed; Ukraine Eastern Poland terrain

[Der Alte Fritz]

It would really expand the scope of the game to get some terrain and buildings for the Ukraine and Poland so that we could do scenarios of the Lvov Sandomir Operation.

Someone did do a set of Ukrainian buildings for CMBB years ago.

[ZPB II]

I thought that is what the "Region: Eastern Europe" setting is for.

[Fizou]

Dont RT include what would be eastern Poland terrain already? Ukraine is another matter, might get something in a later module though.

[Kieme(ITA)]

What would be needed to change?

[Der Alte Fritz]

I thought that is what the "Region: Eastern Europe" setting is for.

What in the same way that a "North America" regional setting would cover Mexico, Texas, Alabama, Kansas, Manitoba, New Hampshire and Alaska?

Russia alone is twice the size of Canada without Poland, Belorussia, Ukraine, Transinstria, Latvia. Lithuania, Estonia (Finland). There is a lot of regional and cultural diversity in "Eastern Europe"

CMRT specifically covers Belorussia - wooden houses which would also be applicable for eastern Poland. The Baltic states are very different and Ukraine, Western Ukraine and the area around Lvov are different again. Lvov (Lemburg) was Austrian for most of its history and has very different buildings to Belorussia.

Here is a painting by Ilyra Repin of a Ukranian peasant house

and from: http://www.wumag.kiev.ua/index2.php?param=pgs20044/6

[Der Alte Fritz]

As a comparison this is a White Russian house:

[Kieme(ITA)]

Ok, one is covered in plaster one is bare wood logs, yet I'd say that there are even more kinds... both have the same roof. CMRT has already stuff to cover such need as these shacks. There are a lot of independent buildings, with two or even three wood textures each.

So, what kind of different terrain there should be? What about architectures? A peasant shack doesn't justify a Whole new set of terrain Tiles and buildings...

East europe regions are huge, yet the climate is not much different, cultural diversities are sometimes obvious only for east european and in any case they don't affect extremely the building construction or material use.

[Der Alte Fritz]

We can be quite specific about the areas involved in the fighting June-Sept 1944 Western Ukraine (formerly Eastern Poland and nowhere near the current Polish border) around Lvov and along the Carpathian mountains (under Austrian rule it was known as Galacia), Belorussia around Minsk particularly the wooded marshy area and later on around Brest and Latvia (with its long connections to German Protestant culture).

Area around Lviv (Lvov-Lemburg)

Lemburg town

Really looks more like Milan than Minsk

[Der Alte Fritz]

Vernacular architecture of the Carpathians

Both Lemberg and the Carpathians were richer than Russia being under former Austro-Hungarian rule until 1919 so they have slate roofs and generally a higher standard of finish

[Kieme(ITA)]

Well, anything concerning shapes is up to BFC and their 3d modelers, so there's little we can do. As far as BFC history is concerned when it comes to buildings I'd say that we won't see anything extremely different from we have now.

From moscow to berlin BFC has to make a set of structures and textures that cover a wide area of interest but can't go into detail, thus giving us generic shaped structures and textures that cover the basic, that is: more wood and brick in russia, and more stone and wood/plaster when it comes to east germany, and so on.

Focusing on more specific buildings has never been a priority for BFC, the only really specific ones are the churches. Even the indipendent buildings such as barns etc. are the same in russia and normandy, with the difference that normandy uses more stone and russia more wood, it's an aproximation, but indeed if you think about what the average joe can imagine when it comes to russian and normand barns the idea is given, without making a perfect reproduction.

From those pictures I'd say we are covered, BFC has a set of tiled roof for eastern europe and a very different one for russia. We might see something more when it comes to germany and west poland.

Cities all look the same, specific monuments won't be implemented I guess as they never were.

A nice thing to do with time available would be to put down some structures in CMRT and try to take pictures such as those above. And see how close or far is the result-.

[Der Alte Fritz]

Farmhouses tended to be built around a central courtyard with a wall closing off one side and a single entrance gate. Perhaps to keep out Vampires?

[George MC]

There are thatched buildings in the editor at the moment - a wee bit of work on these and others and you can reskin the existing structures to be more Polish. In saying that I suspect more/different buildings may be on the cards in a next module when we get SS units - and the fighting shifts more into Poland. The first module really only covers Belarussia but folks 'pushed' the envelope for that time frame to cover some of the fighting on the Polish border.

[Der Alte Fritz]

[George MC]

There are several different thatched type buildings (you can cycle through the roof options in the 3D view in the editor). Easy enough to paint the wall of one white. Roofs can be re-skinned as well.

[Der Alte Fritz]

There are thatched buildings in the editor at the moment - a wee bit of work on these and others and you can reskin the existing structures to be more Polish. In saying that I suspect more/different buildings may be on the cards in a next module when we get SS units - and the fighting shifts more into Poland. The first module really only covers Belarussia but folks 'pushed' the envelope for that time frame to cover some of the fighting on the Polish border.

Hi George

We have a possible contrast with the L'vov-Sandomir Operation in the area of the Western Ukraine (Galacia) which takes in this very different, terrain hilly mountainous area, the snowy Carpathians in the background and a different vernacular architecture with thatched roofs and tiles roofs, buildings more of brick or plasterwork, more painted surfaces and church are very different in style with more German influence.

On the operational side, in July you have the Soviet offensive against AG Nord Ukraine which was torn apart by the Ukranian Fronts and chase back into the mountains or pushed away to the gates of Warsaw to the north. Some really stirring accounts of Panzer Divisions operating in a total vacuum with no unit on either flank for several hundred kms.

[Der Alte Fritz]

There are 25 basic individual building types and each one has 1,2,3 variants within the folder so that placing several of the same building in a line will give some variation.

So there are several options here. I imagine you can add additional buildings to the folders to produce more variants. Some folders display a [tag] [easterneurope] which can be used in scenarios in Poland to give a more Polish feel. This could be developed further by adding extra buildings with the [tag] [ukraine] or [carpathians] so that a scenario could show the correct setting to display your carefully modded Panther tank.

In many cases a copying of the building and just re-colouring or re-texturing would make a lot of difference.

[Degsy]

There are some examples of architecture from various parts of the Ukraine, including Carpathia, at the open air museum at Pirogovo/Pyrohiv just outside Kiev. Some photos here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrohiv

http://www.inyourpocket.com/ukraine/kyiv/sightseeing/museums/Folk-Architecture-and-Life-Museum_26489v

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=architectural+museum+kiev&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=4BBYU7D5Jce3POL-gHA&ved=0CHUQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=655

[Der Alte Fritz]

What a great selection of images. I particularly like the contra-rotating windmill!

[Kieme(ITA)]

Well, I am working on a mod dedicated to modular buildings, these two are not intended but interesting matches:

Of course they are logs instead of planks, yet I might be able to give some log looking by working on the corners.

Roofs are another problem since they would require BFC modelling business. Both roofs seem to be made out of wood, that should be easy to be done as a visual mod.

The other thing I noticed is the White plastered shack, might be easy to add to some independent building, maybe as an additional facade.

The other log shacks seem to be covered by ingame independent buildings already..

Simferopol museum:

I will try doing something similar for an add on to urbanization mod.

[MikeyD]

Modular building roofs switch from metal roofing to tiles when you switch to 'eastern Europe'. The tiles designs were taken from Polish tile roofs. As you can see, indi buildings are very much more variable.

[Der Alte Fritz]

MikeyD do you (or someone) have a list of which buildings (correspond to which building button in the editor) are which. Have worked out that

000-107 are houses

108 windmill

200-203 barns

300-308 churches

400-407 commercial

but cannot identify which building on screen (and its variants) correspond with which building in the editor.

A number of variants are available plus the [easterneurope] tag

[Fernando]

Indi buildings with their options. They are the builings ordered as shown on the editor."Diagonal" building textures are iddentical to "Orthogonal" ones, so the first orthogonal texture is iddentical to the first "diagonal" one.

The commercial buildings are:

100&104

101&105

102&106

103&107

The indi houses are:

000&006

001&009

002&010

003&011

004&012

005&013

007&014

008&015

Churches:

From 301 to 303: Modular Catholic Church

304 and 305: Indi Orthodox churches

306 to 308: Modular Orthodox Church

The [easterneurope] textures for indi buildings are iddentical to the Russian ones, but the signs are in Polish rather than Russia and most wood and metallic roofs are replaced by tiled ones.

[Der Alte Fritz]

Thank you Fernado, that is very useful

[Der Alte Fritz]

Having looked at the range of buildings it seems to me that a very good approximation could be made for a [ukraine] and a [carpathians] addition to the range of buildings with relatively little effort.

For the [ukraine] we could replace the wooden versions of house 5 with new white plastered ones, just use the thatched roofs, make the wooden house 7 a recoloured version of its alternate and a tiled roof.

Similarly with the Carpathians it is a question of replacing the metal and thatched roofs of the larger buildings with red tiled ones, increasing the number of brick buildings and perhaps some white or pale plastered ones. The wooden buildings could stay.

How this is achieved in modding terms is (I think) by copying and pasting the existing builds that you want with the correct [tags] and then a small number of 'new' buildings.

Have not looked at the churches yet but the above would seem to change the feel of the game sufficiently to be worthwhile and yet not mean a huge modding project.

[Fernando]

Here are the Churches: