A command I would like to see: target carefully

[Bastables]

Hallo bas. Good to see you again

Hey Jon, met A up in ponsonby with his lovely wife and daughter, of course it was a public holiday so most of aucks was closed.

[Bastables]

Which has nothing to do with the situations I am discussing, where the enemy is clearly observable and unaware of the ambushing forces presence.

I'm omitting the rest because it clearly pertains to active combat scenarios, likely at close to intermediate distance, where the opposing force is equally aware of your position as you are of theirs, and not to longer ranged ambushes which is where carefully aimed initial fire is its most useful, especially in the era of bolt-action rifles.

In your opinion, and without citing texts that have little to do with the situation I'm describing, do you really think a unit is better suited firing rapidly and with limited marksmanship on a target that is at the farther end of their effective range and clearly unaware of their presence, than they are taking the modicum of time (but more than 3 seconds) necessary to make their opening volley accurate (which, considering the enemy is not yet looking for cover, can easily be the most crucial) by carefully estimating their range.

The former just seems too wildly counter-intuitive and illogical, I cannot see any advantages to it.

So you want to pull the your opinion bit when you've cited no pam's, training, drill, even general importance of either the Soviets or the Germans in accurate marksmanship. Let me give you a hint both armies focused more on fire and maneuver as units not as individuals. And fire and maneuver is about suppressing the enemy so you can get close enough to neutralize them neither side bothered with pinking men off at 300 or 500 or 800 metres because it did not work.

Both sides considered it an irrelevance and preferred to give units more automatic weapons. Both sides (with the germans aping the Soviets) then started arming entire sections with SMG's. Automatics are not good at one shot aimed kills, they're the complete opposite. What they're good at is suppressing people, so if you don't see any advantages to the conclusion that all militaries discovered ( with the exception of the recalcitrant commonwealth) and then armed and trained for, that's your own look out.

If you want a historical soldier who battlefield zeroed and took time to set up individual shots, use a marksmen/sniper.

Try reading Military training in the British army, 1940-1944: from Dunkirk to D-Day pg 75 is a good un with the chapter titled The Failure of Infantry

Commonwealth was fixated on marksmanship of individual rifle men and yet men in combat were petrified and bewildered when they could not identify targets. So there was push back with the idea that everyone else (continental armies) had figured out prior to the 20th century "Similar problems had arisen in Sicily and the 50th Div had argued that infantrymen should use their rifles as weapons of neutralisation rather than marksmanship if definite targets were not apparent." It even goes down into the then controversial arguments of pepper potting or "pairs fire and maneuver," which any contemporary commonwealth infantry man can tell you was and is a basic drill during any post war infantry corps training. Finally after two world wars our infantry fight like the Germans and the Soviets and do not stress knob fiddling or individual marksmanship.

When I was deployed on my military OE one of the first things they did was drill us on fully automatic reaction fire from the hip with the styer. Not how to slip a 5c piece into the sight picture "knobs" and sod around in proper firing stance double tapping.

Germans and the Soviets bypassed all that by not expecting marksmanship from their riflemen, for the germans especially riflemen were just security and ammo bearers for the point of the section the LMG and to assault the position once the enemy was suppressed. Because the most effective way to win an infantry engagement is fire and maneuver not accurate riflemen shot from a distance. The latter did not work for the Commonwealth inspite of training for it. The Germans and the Soviets did not equip for it yet you want to pretend to be the Rupert instructing your men to conduct marksmanship in the midst of combat when they've never been trained for it . . .

[acrashb]

Why would infantry weapons, specifically MGs and rifles, have sights that can be carefully dialed to specific ranges, if troops weren't expected to ever use them?[...] but they're clearly there for a reason.

In both cases, the extended ranges on sights are for area fire. It takes a damn good shot, with a modern rifle / scope, ballistic data card, light wind, perfect range information (laser ranged or pre-measured), and good meteorological information, to make an upper-body shot at 800 yards on a stationary target in good light.

With a WWII iron-sighted rifle and regular infantry, not happening. It would have been set sights at 800 yards, volley fire the entire company to suppress. Or more likely: keep your heads down while the LT calls in arty.

I don't know about AT guns; presumably they had ranging gear and could make use of it.

[Holman]

When it comes down to it, I think a new "Target Carefully" command is asking for too much micromanagement. At the same time, I think it would be good for completely unsuppressed units to have an accuracy bonus of some sort when first opening up.

It is entirely possible that they already do; I don't know that any tests have been done. It's true that a CMx2 rifle squad opening up on an unsuspecting enemy doesn't drop them all like a team of scoped snipers, but that's because a CMx2 rifle squad is not a team of scoped snipers.

[A Canadian Cat]

My thoughts: you don't want human troops. You want automatons.

That was my thought too. It sounded to me like he wants a all soldiers operate without adrenaline and mode.

I believe the skill of the troops already accounts for how careful / good troops are at aiming.

I always thought that the manual said that "TARGET LIGHT for infantry at least was "aiming carefully" while TARGET was more high volume suppressive fire

Nope. From the manual:

This is a variation of the Target command and works very much the same, but at a reduced fire output. Usually it limits the firing unit to use small arms and MG fire, while larger calibers and heavier weapons hold fire.

Note: on-map mortar teams that receive a Target Light command will use their mortars, but only at a very slow rate of fire

Target Light is useful when you want to put a few MG rounds into a suspected enemy location but not waste a tank’s main gun round, or if you want to take a few aimed shots at a low threat infantry target not too far away without wasting too much ammo. Target light does not prevent the use of hand and rifle grenades, though, at the appropriate ranges.

[Amizaur]

I feel that in reality, units in this situation (not spotted by their opponents who are exposed, and waiting to engage, e.g. ambushing) would likely take the time to estimate the range and dial this in more accurately with their sights.

+1

I think that tank and ATG crews would carefully estimate the range and takie their time aiming precisely their first shot, if they were safe (not detected yet) and the situation didn't require to shot quickly (i.e. the target is not going anywhere).

I read numorous descriptions of such carefully aimed shots in various soldier memoirs.

[Erwin]

"...a few aimed shots..." Isn't that what we're talking about?

Unless one is saying they want three levels of accuracy: "Spray and Pray"; "General Shooting" and "Aimed Fire". Not sure if it would be worth the hassle.

[Sailor Malan2]

I am completely with the nay sayers here. I think the question is flawed and expects lethality of fire that just isn't realistic. We do not need a target carefully, and it would not be at all realistic.

Unless someone does a Bisley scenario

[Bastables]

When it comes down to it, I think a new "Target Carefully" command is asking for too much micromanagement. At the same time, I think it would be good for completely unsuppressed units to have an accuracy bonus of some sort when first opening up.

It is entirely possible that they already do; I don't know that any tests have been done. It's true that a CMx2 rifle squad opening up on an unsuspecting enemy doesn't drop them all like a team of scoped snipers, but that's because a CMx2 rifle squad is not a team of scoped snipers.

Thing is there are better games for min maxing things like "to hit percentages." The "New" Xcom is excellent for that sort of interplay of every decision is important because of limited action points paradigm.

Xcom pretty good strategy "board game." Fantastic little game. Combat mission not really that sort of decision to decision game.

[A Canadian Cat]

"...a few aimed shots..." Isn't that what we're talking about?

I suppose but I do not think that fire from the Target command is any less aimed.

Unless one is saying they want three levels of accuracy: "Spray and Pray"; "General Shooting" and "Aimed Fire". Not sure if it would be worth the hassle.

Agreed - we need to let the troops "training" handle this.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Don't TRPs allow us to do this already? The manual specifically tells us that TRPs can be used as ambush markers allowing for improved targetting

[Vanir Ausf B]

Yes, they do, within a 50 meter radius.

[MikeyD]

Awhile ago didn't someone post a pict of a Russian rifle site with gradations going out to 2000m? The caption was "The definition of 'optimism'"

[LukeFF]

Awhile ago didn't someone post a pict of a Russian rifle site with gradations going out to 2000m? The caption was "The definition of 'optimism'"

Yep, that was me.

[c3k]

^^^

The interesting aspect of that sight is that the curve which it slides along is a reproduction of the ballistic profile of the bullet. As it should be, to take account of the drop.

On topic: I've always thought that "Target Light" is a slower ROF, using fewer automatic weapons, with better/longer aim for each shot. Whereas "Target" is akin to giving it all you've got. If my impression is correct, then "Target Light" would accomplish the desired "aim carefully", especially if the unit is unsuppressed and not tired.

Ken

[womble]

On topic: I've always thought that "Target Light" is a slower ROF, using fewer automatic weapons, with better/longer aim for each shot. Whereas "Target" is akin to giving it all you've got.

That's not the result I've seen when I've cursorily compared Target Light and Target in an attempt to conserve ammo. If a team uses 100 or so rounds at a given target in a minute on Target, it uses so nearly the same number of rounds at the same target in Target Light mode that any variation could be accounted for by reloading stops and the general wriggling around of the team.

[Baneman]

Dang, really ? I always had the same belief as c3k.

[Erwin]

Ok, ok... I know it's a PITA to read the manual. But, I felt someone had to make the supreme sacrifice for y'all...

P82:

TARGET

This is the standard fire command, instructing a unit to use all of its available

weapons to fire at the designated target. The target can be an enemy unit or

a piece of terrain (area fire).

Note how it says “available weapons” in the preceding paragraph!

Some weapons may have restrictions, such as

having to be deployed before you can fire them. Perhaps

the most notable restriction is that rocket propelled antitank

weapons(e.g. Bazooka, Panzerfaut, Panzerschreck)

may not be fired from enclosed spaces (such as buildings

or bunkers) due to the lethal backblast.

If the target is an enemy unit, the firing unit will fire only when the enemy

target is visible and hold fire (but maintain the target) when it is not. If the

target is an area, the firing unit will maintain a constant stream of outgoing

fire at the selected area, automatically shifting its center of aim during the

process to each side to maximize coverage and effect. Area targets always

“snap” to the underlying action grid in CM:BN

Area fire orders are immediately canceled when any active member of the firing

team/squad enters the target area (useful for room clearing).

Note: A special situation is the targetting of an enemy unit

near a TRP (Target Reference Point). In CM:BN, these

double-function not only for artillery support fire, but

also as “ambush markers”. Soldiers targetting an enemy

unit near a friendly TRP are much better at estimating

the range correctly.

How much and what type of fire (small arms, main gun, grenades) is outgoing

depends on a number of factors, including the type of firing unit, the disBattle

for Normandy 83

tance to the target, target type, and the available ammunition. For smaller

targets further away, the firing unit will use aimed fire and single shots or

short bursts while it might switch to full auto at targets at close range and

when it has enough ammunition available.

Note that you do not have to use this command to make a unit

fire. Units will open fire on sighted enemy troops and

vehicles automatically if/when they can. In fact, unless

you have a specific reason to order a unit to concentrate

its fire on a specific enemy, it is often the better choice to

let the unit decide its targets freely.

While the target command is being issued, the command line extending from

the firing unit to the mouse cursor assumes the function of a Line-of-Sight

tool. Different shades of, grey, blue and red indicate if a line of sight is free,

obscured, or blocked, and where it is blocked (the area out of sight is marked

with red). When placing a target command the color denotes how strong the

LOS is to the target. If the line to the target is light blue the LOS is clear,

part dark blue and part magenta if it’s blocked, and gray if it’s mostly clear

but not for every soldier in the squad/team.

Additional Notes can be displayed at times above the target, alerting the player

to special conditions, such as Hull Down or Partially Obscured or plain Out

of Sight targets.

How well a unit performs in executing a Target command depends on a large

number of factors, including distance and equipment, target type and status,

as well as the firing unit’s experience.The quality of range estimates

made by gunners and the speed of acquiring and re-acquiring targets especially

depend on the experience level of the shooter.

Note: Virtually every bullet in CM:BN is tracked from muzzle

to target. This applies to both small arms as well as heavy

calibers. The principle of “what you see is what you get”

applies: if only part of a vehicle is visible (e.g. behind a

wall or partially concealed by a slope in the terrain) then

only that part can be hit by direct fire. The only exception

to this is that vehicles are NOT shielded by hiding behind

knocked-out armored vehicles; however, infantry does

gain cover in this situation. In fact, infantry also

receives a blast protection bonus when an armored vehicle

(live or knocked out) is between them and a very large

explosion.

Restrictions - Target is not available if the unit has no ammo.

84 Combat Mission

Example - enemy snipers are firing from a building. Instead of targeting the

enemy unit, the player calls for area fire from a tank, which uses high-explosive

ammo from its main gun to blow up the whole side of the building.

TARGET LIGHT

This is a variation of the Target command and works very much the same, but

at a reduced fire output. Usually it limits the firing unit to use small arms

and MG fire, while larger calibers and heavier weapons hold fire.

Note: on-map mortar teams that receive a Target Light command

will use their mortars, but only at a very slow rate

of fire

Target Light is useful when you want to put a few MG rounds into a suspected

enemy location but not waste a tank’s main gun round, or if you want to take

a few aimed shots at a low threat infantry target not too far away without

wasting too much ammo. Target light does not prevent the use of hand and

rifle grenades, though, at the appropriate ranges.

Restrictions - same as for Target

Example - for firing at long distances, the game itself already reduces fire output

even if you use the Target command, so Target Light is most useful as an ammo preservation tool for targets at medium and close ranges.

ALLES KLAR (herr kommissar)?

[Vanir Ausf B]

I have never compared ammo usage between Target and Target Light for infantry, but I have on tanks and the difference is small, in the neighborhood of 10%

[Holman]

I have never compared ammo usage between Target and Target Light for infantry, but I have on tanks and the difference is small, in the neighborhood of 10%

Huh? For tanks, Target vs. Target Light is the difference between using the main gun and using just machine guns.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

I don;t understand why one would wamt a Target Carefully command. The Target Arc does this already.And if you are wanting to conserve ammo either use thhe Target Briefly Command or keepan eye on them. Oersonally I would not bother with tis and don't we have supply units now - which,in themselves could suggest some interesting scenario deas.For insance some German tanks, low on ammunition towards the end of a day's fighting are heading back o te supply trains.Unfortuneatly the Soviets have achieved a small tank breakthrough You have to protect the divisional supply trains. If these include tank ammo, and I am not sure if they do or not then maybe you could resupply your tanks on the battlefield.... Based on an dea from one of Donald Featherstone's books

[Vanir Ausf B]

Huh? For tanks, Target vs. Target Light is the difference between using the main gun and using just machine guns.

Target Light is designed to effectively engage the enemy in a way that doesn't blow through your ammo. For Infantry and Weapons it is "slow down your RoF", for Vehicles it is "slow down your RoF and avoid using your big gun if you have one".

Note that in that thread there were some tests done on infantry and machine gun ROF under Target and Target Light, resulting a difference of 0 to 20%

[womble]

And just because the manual says it, doesn't necessarily mean it's true. Haven't checked whether it still has the error about the triangle and sphere markers for waypoints. That was in BN and, IIRC, FI.

[Erwin]

"And just because the manual says it, doesn't necessarily mean it's true."

Sadly, very true... It's like players are deliberately kept in the dark. I suspect disguising inaccurate modeling. But, if you like the game, who cares?

[Wodin]

I wish my tank hunters didn't fire off both PAnzerfausts at one tank straight after each other..instead of waiting to see if the first one had done the business. A few time snow I've seen much needed anti tank rounds getting wasted on dying tanks.