Myth of Invincibility Scenario.

[Champagne]

Wow. Aptly named.

SPOILERS

I had no idea that the Germans lost the war because the T34/85 was superior to both the Panther and the Jpz IV, in a straight up, front to front fight.

I've been wrong about this since 1973.

[Davek555]

I don't know, I always thought the Panther was superior to the T34/85 although not by a great deal. The problem was there were just not enough of them.

[snarre]

its not chanched , panther is still many way better than T34/85 . i dont say T34 is bad

and there is all ready long talking about same thing :The german tank be weaken or the Russian ammo be strengthen in the CMRT?

[Glubokii Boy]

I also lost my Jpz IV against the T34s when playing this.

They faced off at about 900 meters.

The 2 LATE Jpz (with 80mm armour) survived quite long and managed to kill off a few T34s befor being destroyed.

but..

The 2 MID Jpz (60mm armour) got killed quickly when they started duelling with the T34s.

The increased armour of the LATE version seems to make a notable difference (good !)

Many of the T34 crew had very good stats...Veteran, even 1 crack (atleast) and many had +2 moral...

Good scenario

[snarre]

if you canot win fair duel/fight , chance rules and fight unfair

[Champagne]

I will have to fight unfair, in that case.

: )

[JasonC]

The mid Jadg front plate is 60mm at 50 degrees, which by the cosine formula resists like 93mm of vertical armor. The turret front of the Panther is 110mm without slope (10 degrees, adds no more than 2mm of resistance). The Russian 85mm penetrates 102mm at 1000 meters and 111mm at 500 meters. The Russian 85mm should thus have no trouble at all with the 60mm Jadg front, and should penetrate the Panther turret front at 500 meters. If there is any armor quality "ding" to the Panther turret armor rating, longer than that.

As for the later 80mm front Jadg, 80mm at 50 degrees resists like 123 mm vertical. Russian 85mm might defeat that much with APCR at pretty close range, but won't with plain APHE. For the same reason, the Panther glacis should bounce them, but the turret, no. (Sides on any of them, obviously are paper to a gun anything like this strong).

[Champagne]

Thanks, JasonC. I had not considered any of those facts. I guess that I should not be so shocked.

Most scenario combat ranges are around 500m or less, so, it seems to me that the lesson for the day is: against the T34/85, the Panther's front turret is vulnerable at ranges of 500m or less.

I did not realize that the Soviet 85mm AT gun was quite so effective.

[c3k]

There was a reason why the Germans added armor to their tanks...

[Andrew H.]

There was a reason why the Germans added armor to their tanks...

And came up with the Jagdpanther!.

[Champagne]

Ok, well, this is new.

I did not know that the Jgpz IV Late frontal armor could be penetrated at 1034 meters by the T34/85's 85mm gun.

Nothing I've ever read indicated that could happen, but, there it is. I guess that I need to read more.

It's hard to believe that the Germans lasted until May, 1945.

[Champagne]

And came up with the Jagdpanther!.

Too bad that only about 400 Jagdpanthers were made.

Like I said, it's a wonder that Germany lasted until May, 1945.

It must have been Soviet logistical problems that kept them from Berlin until then, because, I don't see how it was the German AFVs.

In CMRT, when the T34/85s show up, there's nothing for the Panthers and Pzkw IVs to do but hide and hope for flank shots. I've got decades of learning about WW2 that I need to unlearn.

: )

[Bastables]

Too bad that only about 400 Jagdpanthers were made.

Like I said, it's a wonder that Germany lasted until May, 1945.

It must have been Soviet logistical problems that kept them from Berlin until then, because, I don't see how it was the German AFVs.

In CMRT, when the T34/85s show up, there's nothing for the Panthers and Pzkw IVs to do but hide and hope for flank shots. I've got decades of learning about WW2 that I need to unlearn.

: )

Why? the PIV/JdpzIV should be able to penetrate the front of the T34 up to 1200m the Panther from even further out. The Panther and 8cm JdpzIV should keep out the majority of shots above 500/600 m

You should be planning for flank shots of a matter of course but frontal engagements tend to favour the Germans depending on the tanks involved.

I've also been surprised at losing a T34-85 to StuG in a sub 300m engagement after my round bounced off the StuG's glacis, which is something that never really happened in CMBB. Of course in CMBB the round would have just been calculated against the front plate due to a less discrete modelling of the tanks involved.

[wadepm]

The problem is, as already stated, that in most of the scenarios you can't stand off at the range where the German guns can show their advantage...

[Bastables]

The problem is, as already stated, that in most of the scenarios you can't stand off at the range where the German guns can show their advantage...

T34's frontal armour does not magically increase the closer it is to fascists, maybe in a different WWII in the multiverse but not the one I'm familiar with.

[Melchior]

And came up with the Jagdpanther!.

And explicitly avoided using the Panzer Divisions to stop Russian breakthroughs unless no other option was available. The Germans learned a lot from their experience in the war and one of the biggest lessons they learned was that tanks are very good at killing each other mutually. Thus it was preferable to avoid expending precious Panzers and crews fighting tanks the Allies would replace in a month if lost.

[Champagne]

Why? the PIV/JdpzIV should be able to penetrate the front of the T34 up to 1200m the Panther from even further out. The Panther and 8cm JdpzIV should keep out the majority of shots above 500/600 m

You should be planning for flank shots of a matter of course but frontal engagements tend to favour the Germans depending on the tanks involved.

I've also been surprised at losing a T34-85 to StuG in a sub 300m engagement after my round bounced off the StuG's glacis, which is something that never really happened in CMBB. Of course in CMBB the round would have just been calculated against the front plate due to a less discrete modelling of the tanks involved.

I learned about tactical warfare on the East Front from reading books and playing board wargames. Advanced Squad Leader is a game that I played for almost 20 years.

The reason why my first impressions of RT are surprise and mild shock is because I don't believe that my "education" was very sound. Reading books and ASL? ASL didn't model tactical war on the East Front with nearly as much detail as CMRT.

When you get your main impressions of East Front tactical warfare from Advanced Squad Leader, which was designed back in 1985, it's no surprise that I am surprised and a little shocked.

Yes, I do need to plan more for flank shots. In ASL, the Panther and the JgdPz IV are invincible in a front on front battle with T34/85. That's probably a wrong lesson that I learned.

Thanks to the poster who mentioned that the game scenarios don't happen at ranges that allow German tank guns to shine. That is a Truism that I will have to remember.

[Bastables]

I learned about tactical warfare on the East Front from reading books and playing board wargames. Advanced Squad Leader is a game that I played for almost 20 years.

The reason why my first impressions of RT are surprise and mild shock is because I don't believe that my "education" was very sound. Reading books and ASL? ASL didn't model tactical war on the East Front with nearly as much detail as CMRT.

When you get your main impressions of East Front tactical warfare from Advanced Squad Leader, which was designed back in 1985, it's no surprise that I am surprised and a little shocked.

Yes, I do need to plan more for flank shots. In ASL, the Panther and the JgdPz IV are invincible in a front on front battle with T34/85. That's probably a wrong lesson that I learned.

Thanks to the poster who mentioned that the game scenarios don't happen at ranges that allow German tank guns to shine. That is a Truism that I will have to remember.

I think you should have played CMBB, as I remember a well made Scenario of a coy of late model SS Panthers verses a battalion of T 34-85, The key for the T34's was getting at 600m ranges or relying on lucky turret hits, shot trap or nose hits. Panther's won by mearly keeping the T34's at arms length and using terrain to mask the nose armour. Basically the older engine in a much more simpler and in less details modelled the same interactions, closer ranges T34-85 will penetrate even the Panther frontally (at least the turret).

[Champagne]

And explicitly avoided using the Panzer Divisions to stop Russian breakthroughs unless no other option was available. The Germans learned a lot from their experience in the war and one of the biggest lessons they learned was that tanks are very good at killing each other mutually. Thus it was preferable to avoid expending precious Panzers and crews fighting tanks the Allies would replace in a month if lost.

Wasn't the preferred tactic to have a defense in depth such that the Soviet spearhead would lose all momentum until ripe for counter attack? That counterattack would need some assault AFVs I think.

Perhaps I have never fully realized just how much the tactical situation on the East Front had evolved to the Soviets favor by mid-1944.

[Champagne]

I think you should have played CMBB, as I remember a well made Scenario of a coy of late model SS Panthers verses a battalion of T 34-85, The key for the T34's was getting at 600m ranges or relying on lucky turret hits, shot trap or nose hits. Panther's won by mearly keeping the T34's at arms length and using terrain to mask the nose armour. Basically the older engine in a much more simpler and in less details modelled the same interactions, closer ranges T34-85 will penetrate even the Panther frontally (at least the turret).

I have CMBB on my hard drive right now. That scenario sounds like a good one.

My impression is that the German armor in CMBO and CMBB was not as weak and fragile as the German armor in CMBN, CMFI and CMRT. I may be wrong about this. Do you think I'm wrong about this?

[c3k]

The Soviets did a fantastic job of adapting to the conditions they faced. Their tanks were the right tool for the right job for the men using them. They were better than a lot of early post-war literature made them out to be.

A Patton vs. Zhukov "what if" would be very interesting to model. (That would, unfortunately, ignore logistics...)

Ken

[Bastables]

I have CMBB on my hard drive right now. That scenario sounds like a good one.

My impression is that the German armor in CMBO and CMBB was not as weak and fragile as the German armor in CMBN, CMFI and CMRT. I may be wrong about this. Do you think I'm wrong about this?

You might be ageing like me and misremembering things, do you remember the up roar when Tiger I's drivers front plate was penetrated by 76mm Shermans in the CMBO demo, until people figured out to angle the hull vs the shermans? I think with the tiger they later during CMBB/CMAK figured out that the turret needed to be about 140mm due to turret and mantlet overlap but the DFP was still 10cm.

or the shock postings of Sherman 75mm penetrating StuG's at sub 600m in chance encounter demo?

Sherman 76s would pen the Panther turret at 800m if remember correctly in CMBO and CMBN.

I think you're reacting to the senario just putting the german thicker armour at ranges where it's irrelevant. So the tank combat is who shoots and hits first as opposed to 1000m disadvantage duels.

[Skwabie]

So the tank combat is who shoots and hits first as opposed to 1000m disadvantage duels.

Yep. It is made worse by buttoned tank myopia and the module damages.

Shot outta nowhere -> shot bounces -> but crew panics and TC buttons -> 10 more follow on shots comes, still outta nowhere! -> Destroyed gun, tracks, optics, radio, blah blah blah.

And that is the best scenario in this situation, ofc.

[Vanir Ausf B]

JPz IVs have Jagdpanther-like spotting ability in the game, i.e. horrible I blame the lack of a cupola.

[Skwabie]

JPz IVs have Jagdpanther-like spotting ability in the game, i.e. horrible I blame the lack of a cupola.

Vanir, are the Panthers in RT still bad, spotting wise?