Early advice on battle techniques in Red Thunder

[Vark]

In CM1 the only abstraction was the German magnetic mines, why are RPG's and the equivalent abstracted?

[Der Alte Fritz]

Russian Anti-tank defence can be read about here:

www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA494835

It was based around a layered defence

1) Physical obstacles such as mines, terrain and abattis

2) Battalion level AT guns - 45mm - place right up front with the troops, deployed in pairs and placed behind cover so that they cannot be attacked from the front. They fire off to the side and cover the front of the next position along - with side armour shots - so more deadly than you might think

3) Close assault by infantry in defence of their own trenches using RPG-43 or RPG-6 ( see http://www.militaryfactory.com/imageviewer/sa/pic-detail.asp?smallarms_id=454&sCurrentPic=pic1)

the advantage of these grenades was that they weighed 1.1kg (as opposed to a satchel charge which weighed 4 kg) so closer to the German stick grenade which weighed 0.6kg. They were thrown high into the air and then a parachute made sure that the shaped HEAT charge landed at 90' on top of the tank. Able to punch through top armour they could destroy a turret or engine compartment. Being lobbed high into the air meant that they could be thrown from within a trench. The shaped charge was 0.6kg which is pretty close to the 0.8kg of a Panzerfaust.

4) Heavier AT guns drove into positions on the flanks and engaged the enemy tanks from prepared concealed positions at close range ambush.

5) Artillery would fire on attacking forces to make the infantry take cover.

6) Tanks with over watch from SU and further heavy AT guns would counter attack enemy armour once they were embroiled in the infantry position.

7) Sapper mine detachments would deploy minefields in the probable path of the attack behind the first line defences

The aim was a steady attrition of vehicles with a high proportion of non lethal kills. The introduction of four wheel trucks as as the Dodge Weapon Carrier, Chevrolet, Jeep etc (Studebakers were usually deployed with artillery units) meant that AT guns could be kept right behind the advancing infantry and deployed extremely quickly. This fact coupled with the extensive use of mines deployed in front of the advance, meant that most late war German armour attacks against Soviet infantry bogged down after a few kilometers

[Der Alte Fritz]

IN CMBB the RPG-43 was deadly and you got a nice little icon showing the parachute.

[JasonC]

womble - Russian doctrine was explicit that artillery of all kinds formed the primary antitank means, and that it was to be considered a mistake to reflexively use their own tanks for that purpose. The proper target of their own tanks was enemy infantry. Secondary measures against enemy armor were obstacles, especially antitank minefields and ditches, which were to be sighted to cover routes through the nature blockages provided by terrain, especially water obstacles and large woods.

This doctrine was designed to free the Russian armor for reserve roles and to leave it massed. The preferred employment of such reserve armor was counterattack on different parts of the front than the German heavy points, by doctrine.

Of course they needed such doctrines because they had field grade officers who reached for a tank as soon as they heard a German one. But they knew and taught, as a army, that was a mistake. In practice they did stop a lot of German armored attacks by flocking defending reserve armor to the wound sights. But they also lost a ton of that armor doing it.

[Michael Emrys]

They were thrown high into the air and then a parachute made sure that the shaped HEAT charge landed at 90' on top of the tank.

Not an actual parachute, but a pair of ribbons as you can see here:

However, the principle is the same. The drag of the ribbons was intended to stabilize the grenade in the proper attitude. I expect the advantage of using ribbons was threefold: ease of manufacture; more reliable in use as a parachute can be liable to foul its lines; and faster descent means that it is less likely to drift off target in windy conditions. Also, it had to fall fast enough to trigger the fuse on contact.

Michael

[womble]

womble - Russian doctrine was explicit that artillery of all kinds formed the primary antitank means, and that it was to be considered a mistake to reflexively use their own tanks for that purpose. The proper target of their own tanks was enemy infantry. Secondary measures against enemy armor were obstacles, especially antitank minefields and ditches, which were to be sighted to cover routes through the nature blockages provided by terrain, especially water obstacles and large woods.

This doctrine was designed to free the Russian armor for reserve roles and to leave it massed. The preferred employment of such reserve armor was counterattack on different parts of the front than the German heavy points, by doctrine.

Of course they needed such doctrines because they had field grade officers who reached for a tank as soon as they heard a German one. But they knew and taught, as a army, that was a mistake. In practice they did stop a lot of German armored attacks by flocking defending reserve armor to the wound sights. But they also lost a ton of that armor doing it.

Understood. Still, the major thrust of my point, which may have still been faulty, was that the PBI wasn't equipped to kill tanks at anything other than close range: that was the job of other arms (ATG, as you say, not tanks; my error). der Alte Fritz's breakdown of the various systems' roles in the defense does seem to emphasise that the infantry were supposed to be engaging attacking tanks; it wasn't just a "desperation" measure. Or would the West's Zooks, Shrecks, Fausts and PIATs best characterised as desperate weapons? I know I feel a lot more confident hunting enemy armour if my pTruppen have some of those 4 than if they've just got demo charges or, Ifni forfend, even grenades-standing-in-for-other-stuff.

As to why they're not explicitly modelled, when they were in CMx1? Trying to not be cynical about it, I'd say it's a much more complex thing to model in the 1:1 world of x2 than it was in the days of Larry, Curly and Moe. Back in the day, your squad was a quantum blob of offensive potential somewhere in the 20m AS. In x2, the actual position of the trooper would be critical. I would guess that it was a low priority in the original x2 engine used for CMSF (because infantry standoff weapons are so much more effective, and hand-thrown shaped charges are rare on the modern battlefield), and there have been more important things to program since. Quite a lot of troops which habitually carried a lot of AT gear other than the ManPAT launchers do seem to have demo charges to represent their increased proficiency at close assault on tanks; I'm thinking of German TH teams and Allied paras and Rangers. Without going back to look, did any of Bil's non-engineer teams have demo charges?

[Der Alte Fritz]

Hi Michael

You are right it is not a 'parachute' as such just acting in the same way as a drogue chute.

The ribbons were held in the handle see here for a cut away diagram:

Your picture looks like a RPG-43 as the RPG-6 had a rounded cap to ensure that the grenade detonated at te right distance from the target.

One note I found says that it could penetrate 100mm or armour.

[Michael Emrys]

Your picture looks like a RPG-43 as the RPG-6 had a rounded cap to ensure that the grenade detonated at te right distance from the target.

Yep. I knew both weapons used the same system (i.e. the ribbons), so I just searched for a good RPG-43 pic.

Michael

[MikeyD]

RPG-43 was the last Russian weapon, I believe, to get included in the game and it took some tinkering before it was modeled to fly nose-first and leave a HEAT hit decal where it hit. Now its a real hoot to seem them being used in-game. Think of them as an extra-large hand thrown rifle grenade (Remember tom Hanks chucking rifle grenades in the finale of SPR? )

[womble]

RPG-43 was the last Russian weapon, I believe, to get included in the game and it took some tinkering before it was modeled to fly nose-first and leave a HEAT hit decal where it hit. Now its a real hoot to seem them being used in-game. Think of them as an extra-large hand thrown rifle grenade (Remember tom Hanks chucking rifle grenades in the finale of SPR? )

Aha! So they are in! Just not in any of the things we've seen so far. Splendid news!

[Der Alte Fritz]

MikeyD That is great news! My favourite CMBB unit was the 2 man Soviet SMG armed Tank Hunter squad armed with the RPG-43. Virtually invisible until you ran over them, they could be deadly - lets hope they can be as invisible in CMRT.

The Soviet Infantry Regulations from Nov 1942 NKO Order Nr. 347 stated that the 45m AT guns should engage the enemy tanks, the ATR should aim for the vision slits, fuel tanks engine vents and side armour of the tanks.

The infantry sections should hide and engage any accompanying infantry when they got within 100m while designated soldiers would attack the tanks if they rolled forward. They should fire upon vision slits with their personal weapons and attack the tanks with grenade bundles (referred to in Soviet writings as "ball charges") fire bottles, AT grenades and throw/drag mines in front of the enemy tanks. If the tanks attacked an MG position, the soldiers should put the MG at the bottom of the trench and then attack the tank with AT grenades.

A German Panther training video shows the Soviet infantry techniques very well.

[lurrp]

In late 1941 a special unit existed called the "Tank Destroyer Company". One was attached to each motor-rifle battalion in a tank brigade, and they were pretty much developed for makeshift infantry AT assaults. It consisted of four platoons: one equipped with AT grenade, one equipped with demo charges, one equipped with Flamethrowers, and one equipped with "ampulomet" incendiary launchers. I don't know how it was used, but it seems to suggest that Soviet infantry were, to some extent, expected to take on tanks at very close range.

[RockinHarry]

As announced elsewhere , there is a new "saplings" set of tree tiles that add the option for smaller trees in addition to large ones.

Think I saw them in some the AAR pics. A version anywhere between normal trees and bush ABC in CMBN then, but not mixable in a single tile. So to get true dense forests, one still has to add other things, like low bocage (not in CMRT obviously), extra brush and small tile height variations to break LOS/LOF at the necessary 1m height range then.

[Der Alte Fritz]

To get an idea of the type of forest in White Russia have a look at the news coverage of the Russians who go around the forest recovering bodies 65 years on.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03nt864/Crossing_Continents_Russia_Digging_up_the_Dead/

[JasonC]

womble - infantry AT is a desperation item, check. ATRs, incidentally, don't fall in that category, but are there to limit enemy light armor and keep it from doubling the power of the enemy tanks.

But rifle formation forces are not desperate facing tanks without tanks of their own. It is normal that they had to pick ground the tanks can't easily reach, channel them with terrain, ditches, and mines, and then ambush them with towed ATGs supporting that rifle formation. That all may not stop enemy tanks when there are enough of them. It will force the Germans to concentrate to get any impact from armor, limit the spots where that happens, attrite the German tank force and reduce its overall impact.

Which is enough. The scale on which Russian armor deals with such things by counterattack is way above the CM scale. For the south, Stalingrad and Little Saturn. For Kursk, Kutuzov / the Orel offensive. The same does happen on intermediate scales, but it is the biggest cases that matter the most. Let the Germans flock their tanks to the Russian heavy points for a change. Or not, and let whole armies get pocketed.

We aren't disagreeing about hand thrown grenades. I am just taking the occasion to explain Russian doctrine. Cheers...

[LukeFF]

RPG-43 was the last Russian weapon, I believe, to get included in the game and it took some tinkering before it was modeled to fly nose-first and leave a HEAT hit decal where it hit. Now its a real hoot to seem them being used in-game. Think of them as an extra-large hand thrown rifle grenade (Remember tom Hanks chucking rifle grenades in the finale of SPR? )

That gives me hope that similar German AT weapons will eventually be modeled as well.

[Der Alte Fritz]

You mean like the Panzerwurfmine:

http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/german-grenades/panzerwurfmine.html

[Fizou]

That gives me hope that similar German AT weapons will eventually be modeled as well.

+1 to this. Id love to see magnetic mines, grenade bundles, pzwurf mine etc. The later not in use in the 44 time frame IIRC.

[womble]

+1 to this. Id love to see magnetic mines, grenade bundles, pzwurf mine etc. The later not in use in the 44 time frame IIRC.

The Panzerfaust have obsoleted the PzWfMn I imagine, for close-in armour defense.

[Vark]

Thought in SPR it was the 60mm mortar bombs that were thrown, with ridiculous effectiveness I thought.

VDV troopers were taught how to smear mud on vision slits and damage exterior fixtures and fittings using shovels and crowbars. Although this was Cold-War doctrine I wonder if it had its roots in WWII tactics?

[JasonC]

"I wonder if it had its roots in WWII tactics?"

How about Sergeant Rock comic books?

[LukeFF]

You mean like the Panzerwurfmine

Indeed

...

[Fizou]

The Panzerfaust have obsoleted the PzWfMn I imagine, for close-in armour defense.

More stuff modeled is good in my book so when we move on to the 41 time frame it would be nice to see it included. Other stuff could make its way in before then. Magnetic mines, AT mines, improvised AT, grenade bundles, molotovs etc.

Not sure what direction BF wants to take but the RPG is a nice addition and I hope they keep moving in that direction

[c3k]

"I wonder if it had its roots in WWII tactics?"

How about Sergeant Rock comic books?

Late '41 early '42 German manuals had drawings of studly men advancing towards Soviet tanks with crowbars to bend the mg barrels. Sgt Rock indeed. Pretty desperate techniques promulgated to give the troops a sense that they weren't totally defenseless.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Bah! 4 f's? I've got one BIG F for you, Bil!

Yes, we're battling. While Bil dances and prances with his silly F's, I will skip right to the LAST one: FINISH!!! And by "Finish", I mean "Attack"! And by "Attack"... [snip] blah blah blah[/snip]

Hey Ken, how's that attacking going for your troops in those woods?