Bil Hardenberger Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Always! In fact, as I told my men this, three of them charged off into the distance, screaming "urrah, urrah" as they disappeared over the rise. Heh, okay I'll send you an email and we'll get this going this evening, recall those three fellows, you might need them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fizou Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Heh, okay I'll send you an email and we'll get this going this evening, recall those three fellows, you might need them. This needs to be a AAR/DAR 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 word of warning, I just had an MG set up over watching a clearing covering a withdrawal. As they sat there a pair of SMG guys hit them from the flank and rolled right over the team barely even slowing as they wiped out the whole team and continued chasing my withdrawal. Friggin brutal. Granted the MG team was part of a particularly hard hit company that is very fragile. (Yeah Sergei I am looking at you). Still they never even saw what hit them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vark Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Are SMG's over modelled? I'd always assumed they were in their element in FIBUA and close terrain, as they could be fired on the move to suppress, or area fired at potential targets, so that the units could close to point blank, grenade/shovel range? I've ready plenty of accounts of SMG's driving infantry into cover, but rarely slaughtering squads in under a minute. Are their any accounts of SMG's acting as ballistic scythes? Did the Germans genuinely fear SMG armed units? Did they specify specific tactics to neutralise them? I was hoping the individual spotting would stop the barrage fire that made them ridiculously deadly in CM1. Brrr, brrrr! Squad epileptically twitches before a single pixel trooper marks a mini-slaughter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 In the incident I was recounting, they were right on top of the MG team. They hit them from a blindside, mowed them down, blew the smoke from their barrels and moved on. Whether they are over modelled or not is not something I am qualified to answer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Remember SMGs were invented in WW1 as "trench brooms" to sweep trenches clear at close range. They are meant for close range combat... if you allow them to close then you are asking for trouble.. they might be a little over powered, but I would say not by much, they do the task they were designed for very well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnart Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 This needs to be a AAR/DAR No pressure Ken, and Bil to take time to AAR, but I would like to watch this fight too. Again don't feel obligated. Do it only if you want to. I'm glad Bil wants to be defense as we have mainly only seen hm on offence. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 A couple of points: Mature old growth forests tend to be relatively free of undergrowth; sunlight has a hard time getting through the canopy. Therefore, sight lines can be slightly longish, as much as fifty to a hundred meters, and moving through such a forest is not too difficult as long as the ground itself is not broken. Second growth can be a different matter as saplings and semi-mature trees have to share the ground with shrubbery, brambles, creepers, and weeds. One important exception though is that in a lot of cases in Germany and the rest of Western Europe the forests are not so much wild woods as tree farms or plantations. The trees are planted in rows with ample space between rows to facilitate access and undergrowth has been cleared to control the possibility of wild fires. Thus sight lines can be quite long depending on what the angle is and movement almost unimpeded. On the Eastern Front the forests are more apt to be wild and could either be old growth or recently logged. In specific cases, hard to know which as I doubt very much that any documentation is available that would describe it to that level of detail. However, one might guess that large expanses would be old growth toward their centers and smaller woods, especially those close to population centers of any size at all would have been logged at some time during the previous century. Now about using enemy weapons, especially SMGs...it happened. However, I'm not convinced that it was common to pick up an enemy weapon on the battlefield and begin using it immediately. Why? Because enemy weapons usually had a distinctive sound in use, and firing one in proximity to friendly troops without prior warning might result in being subjected to friendly return fire. And we all know that friendly fire isn't. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 On logging in white Russia, not really an issue. There was to of forest and comparatively little population, for the area. Lots of the countryside is low lying seasonal marsh, too wet in summer to make good agricultural land, frozen over and dry in winter. It was used for fuel certainly, but not on an industrial clear cutting scale. Just selected cuts as needed by locals. The Germans describe the forests as primeval, much more native wild than the norm in western Europe, where practically all non mountain land has been cut through to clear it for agriculture. Agree on the points about relatively little undergrowth in such old forests, when there is a continuous high canopy. Again it is ground water that breaks that up, the whole countryside being dotted with lakes and marsh, ringed by lower reeds, etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 I'm not sure how much of European forest was planted in neat rows of trees "Forestry Commission style" pre-WW2. The rest of Europe wasn't quite as badly deforested as the UK, from what I can gather. The French ONF wasn't established until '64, for example (Forestry Commission est. 1919). While a continuous canopy does, indeed, inhibit undergrowth, any break will soon be colonised by a tangle. The forest edges of waterways and roadways could be difficult going indeed. Closer to settlements, woodland would be managed in a more organised way, but lacking motorised assistance, logging for domestic needs wouldn't get far away from the farm. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted March 19, 2014 Author Share Posted March 19, 2014 Heh, okay I'll send you an email and we'll get this going this evening, recall those three fellows, you might need them. A gauntlet, cast down, has been returned. Our seconds have been chosen. The duel has been arranged. More will be posted for those to whom this sort of bloodsport is considered "fun". Aye, I shall turn to my trusty cohorts and find some volunteers... Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
db_zero Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Bill is known. CK3 is a mystery to me. I think much may depend on the structure of the challenge. If the Germans are mandated to close in quickly on an objective that is in densely covered terrain that may spell trouble. If the Germans are free to manuver not mandated to quickly close in then its a different situation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurrp Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Oh, this should be entertaining. I think a lot depends on the nature of the battle, though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Oh, this should be entertaining. I think a lot depends on the nature of the battle, though. The nature of the battle: Wooded and close terrain, approximately 600m wide by 1km deep Germans (defending) = two Fusilier platoons. This force will be commanded by me Soviets (attacking) = four SMG platoons (SMG company, plus one extra platoon). This is Ken's force The opposing force is the objective, there are no terrain objectives. The intent of this little scrap is to explore defensive tactical options for a German player against Russian SMG troops. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baneman Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 ... The intent of this little scrap is to explore defensive tactical options for a German player against Russian SMG troops. I predict : Artillery. Lots of it ! Oh wait, you don't have artillery. Ok, you're toast ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rokko Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Any chance on pulling it off with regular German infantry? Fusilliers are not that common (only one batallion per 6 regular Grenadier batallions per division in 1944) and have a substantial higher amount of HMGs and SMGs, so it would not be an all to common encounter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Bill is known. CK3 is a mystery to me. If you just assume he is a frothing at the mouth lunatic, I think you'll be in the ballpark. If the Germans are mandated to close in quickly on an objective... The Germans are defending. Presumably it will be the Reds who are closing in, though anything is possible. Stay tuned. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurrp Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 @rokko, I don't think it would have been too uncommon. IIRC, the divisional Fusilier battalion was used to plug holes in broken lines hold positions, something I presume happened quite a bit in Bagration. Also, I know they have quite a few HMGs, but do they have a greater quality of SMGs? I honestly haven't played with them very often. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Baneman has it basically right. The actual way the Germans defended against Russian infantry was not to try to go toe to toe with them, with matching numbers or weapons. That is "mindless mashing of like on like" in combined arms terms, and foolish. Instead, the German answers to massed infantry attacks were the 81mm mortar at company and battalion, the 105 mm howitzer in divisional artillery, and the antipersonnel mine, sown in great numbers. What all have in common is that the denser the enemy packs in the men, the greater the effectiveness of these weapons. They don't much care about trees - treebursts help at least as much as the cover hurts. They don't care much about shorter initial lines of sight - it is enough to hear the enemy coming with a few scouts, and call fire on registration points. Wide areas are covered by obstacles and thin lines of listening posts, backed by those mortar and artillery registrations and by minefields. Between those wide areas, in a few spots, mortars and guns are grouped, each able to reach out several kilometers to the surrounding areas, and 10s of them from positions in the second line of such spots, for the howitzers. Infantry positions guard those firepower arms. From behind wire and mine obstacles and with cleared fields of fire, along which MGs are sited. That is the German answer to infantry in woods interiors. Don't reach for your own SMG and send bodies. Escalate and send high explosive. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 I'm currently reading Tank Rider by Evgeni Bessonov, who was an platoon leader in an SMG company 1943-45. His description of typical German defenses are exactly as you describe. In addition, based on that book it appears that if the heavy weapons failed to stop the Soviets then as soon as the Soviet troops got within effective SMG range the Germans would typically retreat to form a new defensive line further back rather than stand and fight it out in close quarters. There were exceptions, of course. The actual way the Germans defended against Russian infantry was not to try to go toe to toe with them, with matching numbers or weapons. That is "mindless mashing of like on like" in combined arms terms, and foolish. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der Alte Fritz Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 You can see how it is done in this training film "Männer gegen Panzer - Lehrfilm Nr. 541 - 1943 - 1 of 3" on Youtube (not sure if OKH had authorised the use of Youtube back in 1944 but who knows). I realise that the film is specifically about infantry fighting tanks but it does show how to deal with infantry as well. The film shows fairly typical German section defensive trenches and wire entanglements for 1943. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8thWxRiALM The system is: stop the infantry with artillery and long range machine gun fire, hide from the tanks and then close assault them when they get too close. AT guns are in over watch to deal with any that get through and mobile AT guns and armour behind them to deal with any mass breakthroughs. The last thing you do it let Soviet Infantry get close to you and since they are masters of concealment, open ground and fixed defences are a real help. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Well I hate to break it to you guys but you will likely have to find different answers than standard German tactical plans. I don't think the scenario designers are gonna give you those options all the time. That is part of the challenge for Bil. I wish him the best but if it were me I'd be feeling like that goat tethered by the T Rex cage in Jurassic park. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Sburke - I will make my own defense schemes, thanks. Scenario design is not a "take what others give you" kind of thing... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Sburke - I will make my own defense schemes, thanks. Scenario design is not a "take what others give you" kind of thing... I have no idea what that means, but hey have at it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macisle Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 For non-beta testers who want to get a taste of German vs. Soviet infantry before CMRT comes out, perhaps try throwing some Grenadiers against a British Independent Paratroop company with reduced attribute levels. They are very heavy on SMGs. To make it more delicious--make it a woods battle! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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