Terkin Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 As a slight off-topic I would like to suggest you guys to watch this short (<1 hour) documentary made by Russian studio several years ago. it uses documentary footage, reenactors and CGI. It was translated to English. I found all the series interesting, but here's an episode that specifically addresses Operation Bagration. Maybe some of you will find anything new (at least, I know Chris will, when he hears "Bagration" pronounced correctly. ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6UkVl3ZFuI ps I hope it's not against the rules to post links to videos from youtube in this section? if it is, please excuse me and just delete the thread. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted February 18, 2014 Share Posted February 18, 2014 What I find interesting is that the Soviets chose a celebrated Tsarist military commander from the Napoleonic wars as the namesake for the strategic operation. It may also be offset by the fact that Pyotr Bagration was a descendant of the Georgian royal dynasty of the same name(Stalin being Georgian as well). The Communist Party stepped into the background throughout late 1942 until late 1944, allowing the country to call upon their Tsarist roots in defense of the Motherland. You can argue the politics of it all, but I find it an interesting historical sidenote. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnersman Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 This series is actually pretty good. I enjoyed watching all 18 episodes. I've watched the Bagration episode a couple of times since CMRT covers it (but not too much detail). The narrator kept say operation "Bah-grAh-tee-un". Now the geek in me needs to know the proper pronunciation. "Bah-grAh-tee-un" or "Bah-gray-shun"? Edit: after reading the above post, I'm guessing Bah-grAh-tee-un. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 This series is actually pretty good. I enjoyed watching all 18 episodes. I've watched the Bagration episode a couple of times since CMRT covers it (but not too much detail). The narrator kept say operation "Bah-grAh-tee-un". Now the geek in me needs to know the proper pronunciation. "Bah-grAh-tee-un" or "Bah-gray-shun"? Edit: after reading the above post, I'm guessing Bah-grAh-tee-un. Considering the the fact that he consistently mispronounces bielarus, I wouldn't put much creedence in his pronounciation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offshoot Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 The narrator kept say operation "Bah-grAh-tee-un". Now the geek in me needs to know the proper pronunciation. "Bah-grAh-tee-un" or "Bah-gray-shun"? It sounded to me like he was saying bag-RAT-eeun. I think the accent is on the last syllable, so it would be bah-graht-ee-ON, though the ON might sound more like AWN in English. Hopefully a native speaker can chime in. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Well he also said BI-ela-rush all the time... I think he was trying to pronounce the names and locations in their native tongue, but without actually looking up how it is pronounced and just going off the spelling. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
76mm Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 What I find interesting is that the Soviets chose a celebrated Tsarist military commander from the Napoleonic wars as the namesake for the strategic operation. It may also be offset by the fact that Pyotr Bagration was a descendant of the Georgian royal dynasty of the same name(Stalin being Georgian as well). The Communist Party stepped into the background throughout late 1942 until late 1944, allowing the country to call upon their Tsarist roots in defense of the Motherland. You can argue the politics of it all, but I find it an interesting historical sidenote. There were several other Sov operations named after Russian military leaders, for instance the Sov counter-offensives after Kursk were called Operations Polkovodets Rumyantsev and Kutuzov. Also, for what it is worth, at some point (not sure if before, during, or after Operation Bagration), Stalin called Rokossovsky, the Sov general in command of the front on the south face of the battle, his Bagration. I don't fully understand the reference, maybe because both Bagration and Rokossovsky were non-Russian (Georgian and Polish, respectively). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terkin Posted February 19, 2014 Author Share Posted February 19, 2014 here's the same documentary in Russian, you can hear how the operation is pronounced: http://youtu.be/ppCUHPgugiE?t=5m21s (it should open at 5:21) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oddball_E8 Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 here's the same documentary in Russian, you can hear how the operation is pronounced: http://youtu.be/ppCUHPgugiE?t=5m21s (it should open at 5:21) And the proper pronounciation of bielarus Not BI-ela-rush... but more like bjelarus. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnersman Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 here's the same documentary in Russian, you can hear how the operation is pronounced: http://youtu.be/ppCUHPgugiE?t=5m21s (it should open at 5:21) Aaaah, it says it in the opening title at 00:56 mark: Операция "Багратион". (Bahgrahteeohn/Bahgrateeon). Thanks Terkin! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Once you get the cyrillic it's not too hard to figure pronunciation. Aside from a few un-accented vowels, it pretty much sounds like it looks in Russian. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
76mm Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Once you get the cyrillic it's not too hard to figure pronunciation. Aside from a few un-accented vowels, it pretty much sounds like it looks in Russian. Yeah, but sometimes it's hard to figure out where to put the accent...I'm still not sure with Bagration. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuirassier Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 There were several other Sov operations named after Russian military leaders, for instance the Sov counter-offensives after Kursk were called Operations Polkovodets Rumyantsev and Kutuzov. Also, for what it is worth, at some point (not sure if before, during, or after Operation Bagration), Stalin called Rokossovsky, the Sov general in command of the front on the south face of the battle, his Bagration. I don't fully understand the reference, maybe because both Bagration and Rokossovsky were non-Russian (Georgian and Polish, respectively). If memory serves me correct, this is only part of the statement. It went something along the lines of "I have no Suvorov, but Rokossovsky is my Bagration." Stalin was stating that he had no military geniuses under his command of the Napoleon, Moltke, Suvorov, etc calibre. I wouldn't say this is true, (Vasilevsky and Vatutin were both excellent), but Stalin hated to give such praise. However, in comparing Rokossovksy to Bagration, Stalin was saying that he was a reasonably skilled commander that was extremely tenacious and courageous. That is what Bagration is known for, by the way. He held the Russian far right together at Austerlitz and was killed in action at Borodino, courageously facing the French main effort, if I remember correctly. Again, going off memory, the comparison arose during the planning phase of Operation Bagration. Stalin wanted a less risky, straight push through Bobruisk. Rokossovsky favoured a double envelopment and then exploitation. After giving Rokossovsky some time to 'change' his mind, Stalin again strongly urged that Rokossovsky use a single thrust. Rokossovsky nevertheless stood his ground and said that a double envelopment was preferable. Hence the courage and tenacity similar to Bagration. Note that during 1940 Rokossovsky had been imprisoned and tortured by the regime and suffered all sorts of trials during the early war period. So standing up to Stalin like this took considerable courage and resolve, and Stalin recognized this. Plus Rokossovsky had an impressive military record to back up his argument. In the end, Rokossovksy proved to be correct and 20 Pz.D showed considerable confusion in response to Roksossovsky's duel thrusts. I hope this provides some insight into it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Of the Soviet front commanders in WWII I have to tip my hat to Rokossovskii. He possessed finesse in his planning and execution and was much more conscious of casualties than someone like Konev or even worse, Zhukov. Chernovsky was also of similar mold to Rokossovkii but was younger. I do like Vatutin too though his life ended during the war from an ambush by Ukrainian nationalists. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Yeah, but sometimes it's hard to figure out where to put the accent...I'm still not sure with Bagration. To add to the confusion It's actually a little different depending on whether you pronounce in the Russian or the Georgian way... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuirassier Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Of the Soviet front commanders in WWII I have to tip my hat to Rokossovskii. He possessed finesse in his planning and execution and was much more conscious of casualties than someone like Konev or even worse, Zhukov. Chernovsky was also of similar mold to Rokossovkii but was younger. I do like Vatutin too though his life ended during the war from an ambush by Ukrainian nationalists. Indeed, "Bandera's Bandits" did us military enthusiasts a great disservice by killing Vatutin. I've always wondered what post-war memoirs by Vatutin would have been like, considering he had a brilliance for mobile warefare right up there with Manstein. It would have been interesting, of course, to compare Vatutin's memoirs directly to Manstein's, as they were frequent opponents in south Russian and Ukraine. Alas, he did not survive long enough for this to happen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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