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Who were the good guys? (O/T )


Childress
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All you western ppl on your high horses blowing smoke and wind into the air.

As a freedom fighter who lives in Beijing, we need financial support, smoke grenades, offshore websites, government insider connections, some personal non-lethal weapons to defend ourselves, and most importantly, similar minded ppl with tangible talents to comprise of our manpower to dislodge (or marginally disrupt) one of the last standing socialist government.

If we can't do that, at least we hope to restore our freedom of speech and press to some degree, and maybe our rights to vote.

And from our own experience, it's astonishing to find the average joe, under the propaganda of the government, effects of the greater society, and his own survival instinct, is willing to give in to and accept such totalitarian regimes. As the party controls almost all vital assets of the nation, you either try to join the government circle by whatever means necessary, like personal relationship and bribery, and enjoy success to various degrees, or continue your grass root lives with cheap labor pay working like animals. Those who realize what it's all about and/or with a substantiated incentive to do so, try to get outta the country. Hence you get Chinatowns and all those Chinese immigrants like modern gypsies.

At the end of the day, one is a product of his own environment. There're those who can turn it the other way around but those are far and between. I'd say 95% of the ppl here accepts the communist party. They have some grudges, sure, but who doesn't towards his own government. Who cares if the party doesn't encourage or forbid independent innovative free thinking, or individual prosperity, or basic virtues and responsibilities as a human being, or try to cut off their communications with more advanced societies. Long as the reformed party keeps them well fed instead of starving to death like the old soviets, it's good enough.. Basic human instincts only. Which is exactly what the cunning CCP thought and did back when the communist system was about to fall. They loosened the chains, so that rebellions like those in eastern europe could be stopped so as to remain in power. Meanwhile, the already docile peasants, already bound by eternally lasting traditional culture of worshiping a single emperor, didn't have the capability to put up much of a fight in the first place. Sometimes I'd wish things would go more radical, so that there was a chance to entirely change the situation.

OK went a bit off topic there. But the point of it being, one generally thinks along these lines. I have a wife, 2 sons, a daughter, a stable job and a place to live. Why would I go against the government at the risk of being shot. Responsibilities as a citizen... huh what's that? But what am I gonna say to the party secretary tomorrow at the company, so that he can like me more?

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We are far from perfect in Wesern democrcies either but we can at least criticise and oppose the government without fear of being arresed and dragged away by some kind of secret police prior to being shut away for years on end in some kind of labour camp as still happens in some countries. Herewe can try to change things peacefully and democraticaly unlike having to resort to the methods required in other countries such as Egypt, Syria or Ukraine for instance. The Western way, flawed as it undoubtably is , is infinately preferable to the alternatives. But sometimes we have to figght either politically or literally on occasion in order to keep those hard won rights.

On a somewhat lighter ote the 1930s to 40s did have some lively marching songs. One ofmy favourites eve though wrotten for the Waffen SS

And a translated version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATpi4duCA6k

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The Swiss are the highest quality people I ever met. Ten years ago a friend and I were visiting Geneva. He left his wallet, stuffed with cash and irreplaceable documents, on a train seat. Sweating bullets he appealed to the Railway office. The wallet was returned an hour later intact.

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The Swiss are the highest quality people I ever met. Ten years ago a friend and I were visiting Geneva. He left his wallet, stuffed with cash and irreplaceable documents, on a train seat. Sweating bullets he appealed to the Railway office. The wallet was returned an hour later intact.

I have had the same happen in both Japan and Hong Kong. Japan I expected. Hell they have a huge warehouse in Tokyo just for this sort of thing left on the subway.

Hong Kong surprised the hell out of me. I'd dropped my Passport on the street and was passing that same intersection an hour later and some guy was holding it looking for a face that matched. He refused to even accept a gift. I was absolutely floored. I have gotten lot better about watching my s**t while traveling. Fortunately my learning experience was not based on pain, but rather how people can really surprise you by their generosity.

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The Swiss are the highest quality people I ever met. Ten years ago a friend and I were visiting Geneva. He left his wallet, stuffed with cash and irreplaceable documents, on a train seat. Sweating bullets he appealed to the Railway office. The wallet was returned an hour later intact.

I agree. I am part Swiss myself on my father's side. As you can perhaps tell my surname is indeed Germanic. Of course, Switzerland is not perfect andd there is controversy about the country's role in WW2. While it is true Nazi Gold was stored in Swiss banks you have to remember other things too.

Such as the country being surrounded on all sides by Axis or Axis occupied territory. Which meant that vital Swiss food and raw materials imports were under Axis control, nt to mention threatened invasion on several occasions. Despite this Switzerland gave refuge at this time to over 60000 people fleeing Nazi persecution including over 20000 Jews. Plus shoting down a number of Luftwaffe planes violating Swiss airspace. Oh, and giving refuge to escaped Allied POWs.

Many other European countries did far worseand with far fewer excuses. Such as actively fighting alongside Germany and handing over Jews who asked them for refuge. Such as Viccy France, Roumania and Hungary. Yet criticism of that often seems strangely muted compared to that looted gold in Swiss bank vaults. Bad certainly but as bad as handing human beings fleeing persecution and death back over to the very people they were runnng from and in the knowlege that those people would. within a few hours be on the train to Aushwitz and would likely be dead in a matter of days. Which was really the mor evil act?

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Wow, this thing is still going.

Human beings of all races, creeds and nationalities are capable of the most wonderful behavior as well a the most despicable behavior. I'm piqued that this seems to be a surprise to a lot of you.

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I wonder if the ongoing Olympics restricted the Russians from their historical strategy of "getting invited" into a country like Ukraine to maintain order (eg: Hungary etc.).

If so, what that could mean is that Putin will start playing more hardball once all the athletes and world media have gone home.

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I wonder if the ongoing Olympics restricted the Russians from their historical strategy of "getting invited" into a country like Ukraine to maintain order (eg: Hungary etc.).

If so, what that could mean is that Putin will start playing more hardball once all the athletes and world media have gone home.

This could be Yugoslavia 1941 all over again with different players.

Michael

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Was watching how PO'd Putin looked at the games. After all that talk of world peace of nations etc. he must feel severely hamstrung re taking any sort of military action for the foreseeable future. I think he's been outmaneuvered by western political strategy as it's hard to see the timing of the events in Ukraine as a "coincidence".

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If so, what that could mean is that Putin will start playing more hardball once all the athletes and world media have gone home.

I agree, Erwin. Even the biggest bullies don't "play nice" forever.

Don't be surprised if Putin uses the Russian hockey team as cannon fodder. Who knows, this time they might even show up.

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The Ukrainians can expect to get a bloody great gas bill from Russia….

I wonder if the ongoing Olympics restricted the Russians from their historical strategy of "getting invited" into a country like Ukraine to maintain order (eg: Hungary etc.).

If so, what that could mean is that Putin will start playing more hardball once all the athletes and world media have gone home.

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a few officers who tried to kill Hitler a dozen times and got very close twice.

And even then, the majority of them supported the war. In fact, many of them approved of the atrocities committed against Jews (and others). What they really wanted, was a war on their own terms.

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And even then, the majority of them supported the war. In fact, many of them approved of the atrocities committed against Jews (and others). What they really wanted, was a war on their own terms.

Whole books have been written about the lies and distortions of truth Heer Officers ran with after the war. Conveniently absolving themselves of any intimate knowledge of Hitler's plans, despite the Einsatzgruppen being heavily composed of Army volunteers. How about guys like Speer and Guderian sitting on top-level committee meetings over the planned use of Jewish slave labor, claiming post war they had "no idea" what was really going on. :rolleyes: They probably had to hire a carpenter at the Nuremberg trials to keep shaving their noses down.

At least all those crazy Luftwaffe survivors never shied away from telling the ugly truth.

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Whole books have been written about the lies and distortions of truth Heer Officers ran with after the war. Conveniently absolving themselves of any intimate knowledge of Hitler's plans, despite the Einsatzgruppen being heavily composed of Army volunteers.

I'd like to add that there's no need in mentioning Einsatzgruppen, as Heer started massacring POWs already in 1939 in Poland, following to do so with Soviet POWs and civilians.

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For a real wargamer there are not any 'good' or 'bad' guys, there are just forces and objectives.

US military invaded Iraq - a sovereign country, committed many atrocities on civilians and destabilized the region - and all of this based on fabricated claims. Following this pattern, the fictional conflict depicted in CMSF could also be based on fabricated claims.

Were we really playing the 'good' guys?

Still I enjoyed the experience and I think I will enjoy CMRT.

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US military invaded Iraq - a sovereign country, committed many atrocities on civilians and destabilized the region - and all of this based on fabricated claims. Following this pattern, the fictional conflict depicted in CMSF could also be based on fabricated claims.

Were we really playing the 'good' guys?

yes, surprised to hear about the "many atrocities" and the "destabilization of the region" myself. Please enlighten us. :rolleyes:

BTW, Hussein killed more of his own people in the spring of 1991 alone than died in the entire 2003-2011 period and 85-90% of the Iraqi civilians who died in 2003-2011 were killed by other Iraqis.

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Despite having opposed the US invasion of Iraq, I have to agree with Sgt Joch - With the exception of a very few idiot morons, the Coalition forces performed with admirable restraint in a completely untenable situation. I may not think much of Bush, Cheney and the Neocons, but I am extremely proud of the standards of behavior of my country's men and women in uniform. I only wish our politicians held themselves to the same standards.

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I used to be one of those troops and we did NOT commit " many atrocities", that is a gross exaggeration, Fact is, if you compare the few atrocities some coalition troops actually did commit to any military in any war, we were angels.

Regardless how 'few' you did commit, it was still 'too much' for a war without any legitimate reason (as we all learned later). I do not even mention the mess current Iraq is.

I understand that average soldier can have good intentions or he simply obeys the orders. Sadly, politicians do not care.

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Regardless how 'few' you did commit, it was still 'too much' for a war without any legitimate reason (as we all learned later). I do not even mention the mess current Iraq is.

You stilll did not enlighten us on what "atrocities" you think coaliton forces committed.

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