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The most stupid troops of all time. Ever.


Zot
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Combat mission is great, and I can't wait for the release version.

However, I have my reservations about just how stupid my troops seem to be sometimes...

Last night, some of my troops were passed by a Sherman as it struggled through scattered trees. It lumbered past without seeing them, so I ordered them to make chase and use their panzerfausts against its exposed rear.

They ran and caught it up, but rather than shooting it from 25 metres, or 20, or even 15, they decided that their waypoint was far more important, so continued running, right through the (exact) centre of the tank, and back out the other side! Once they got 15m past the tank (to my slightly-too-far waypoint position), they turned and considered targetting it. Meanwhile, the Sherman crew had woken up and decided to turn their guns on my men. I'll leave it to your imagination to guess who won.

OK, so my men were Green. But I would have thought that even the greenest man would notice that he was standing in the middle of an enemy tank with an ideal opportunity to spray machine-gun bullets through the entire crew!! ;)

I've also noticed a disturbing tendency for my crews to totally ignore their targetting orders, which would be fine if they act sensibly. e.g. A StuG is ordered to fire on the Sherman directly in front of it at close range (150m). But just before it fires, it decides that a pesky machine-gun 400m to its left is a far juicier target, and promptly (well, agonisingly slowly in fact) re-targets on the machine gun. Unpredictably, the Sherman then knocked out the StuG.

Or a veteran team that is hiding with panzerfausts is asked to pop up and shoot a passing tank, so they decide to stand up and engage some infantry 200m away, then wonder why the tank cuts them to ribbons.

I wouldn't mind too much if my greenest troops make the occasional cock-up, but when it happens at almost every crucial moment, and from decent troops, you start to wonder if perhaps there's been a bit too much inbreeding... ;)

Ah, well, while I'm waiting for the final release, I can set about learning about all these ranges, speeds, and capabilites, and perhaps eliminate a few of the stupid things that *I'm* doing... :)

Anyway, keep up the good work, guys. Can't wait for the final version.

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Guest PeterNZ

I believe a good deal of the problems you mentioned have been addressed.

Units in the latest build are more likely to follow your targeting orders, and also more likely and better able to use their panzerfausts.

this is with a bunch of other nice changes you'll see scatered through the boards postings smile.gif

all hail the gold, when it comes smile.gif

PeterNZ

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Remember if you issue a fast command to your units they will stick to your movement orders more than if you issue them a stealth or move order. They are more likely to stop and shoot at a target with the latter two orders.

Also, regarding your units running through an enemy tank, remember to check that you have your units' scaling set to the realistic scale. You may have been playing with your units at an enlarged size for greater visibility - thus causing them to appear to be moving through the tank when actually they ran close by it.

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Guest Big Time Software

Zot,

I think all of the problems you mentioned have been fixed to some degree or other. The one mistake you made was using Run. For very good reasons, your guys (and vehicles if using Fast) will very rarely stop to do anything. If you want to run after a Sherman or something, you need to figure out a place to run to, then either have the unit stop to get into firing position. If we didn't do this we would be getting many more complaints about guys running from building to building, but instead of running, stopping and taking pot shots at stuff smile.gif

Steve

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Steve - does it have to be so black and white with the "run" command?

It seems to me that in most cases you will want your guys to run and not stop for anything. But what about an immediate threat or target that they can easily elimate.

Like Zot's guys running past the tank. Those guys could have stopped, taken out the tank, then kept running.

It seems to me that there should be some VERY LIMITED circumstances for troops to "disobey" the RUN command and stop to take care of business. I am not talking about "pop shots" at mediocre targets, I am talking about close, immediate threats and high percentage shots at targets they are right on top of.

It just seems strange that the orders were for those guys to run right past the tank, and they didn't stop to take it out. Can that type of move be justified from a realistic standpoint? Was there ever a need to have your guys run right past a tank like that and take no action?

OK, I am ready for my lesson now.

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I have to agree here.. it seems that under very limited circumstances, a unit shouldn't stick to their run order all that stringently. In particular, I'm thinking of when they encounter threats at extremely short ranges, in particular if that threat was only just spotted... I've had squads come suddenly on enemy squads in the woods and decide that the best course of action was to run right through the enemy, forcing them to waste an excess amount of bullets riddling my mens corpses.

Just a tiny nitpick, but tiny is really the only size of nits we have to pick on in the demo.

Chris

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The RUN command should only be used under exceptional circumstances.

I get to see a lot of games which people send me to check out a question they have or to see something "cool" or whatever and I must admit I often wonder if they ever walk anywhere in real life wink.gif

In many of these games 3/4s or more of the troops are running somewhere at any time. Units in cover with no enemies nearby are running etc.

Basically I would put forth the argument that people are using run unrealistically and then asking for the run command to be modified so their failure to mix run and walk commands properly isn't as deadly to them wink.gif

Basically IF you think you are going to run into unseen enemy troops you should walk unless you really are making a dash for some terrain feature under fire. So in a LOT of situations I think people should walk instead of run.

Run in CM is a hell for leather dash under fire towards some important objective. In FAST your unit's aim is to get from A to B as quickly as possible. In a tactical environment with nearby enemy troops run should only be used if:

A) you are retreating from them.

B) You are running from 1 friendly-controlled house to another (or any terrain feature)

c) you are making a losses-irrelevant charge towards an enemy position and need to cover ground quickly to minimise time of exposure to enemy fire.

D) other circumstances which it is valid in but which only very good and experienced players can exploit.

I basically think people are running everywhere and then wishing their troops would fire and be as aware as if they had ordered them to move. Sorry guys but THAT is the trade-off. They get there quickly but they are prone to being ambushed and blown apart.

BTW lots of people are already complaining their units don't obey them enough. To make them likely to break out of runs (in open terrain) to take potshots at AFVs etc would drive these people (plus you) mad.

BTW stopping in open terrain to fire at a tank is EXACTLY the wrong thing to do. Against any but the most incompetent opponent a stopped infantry squad in that position would be butchered in seconds. Combined arms dictate that infantry are in a position to bring fire on terrain around a tank at the very least. If you can't run infantry up within metres of the tank then you MUST ensure your MGs, mortars and rifles can fire on any enemy units which close with the tank. If I was a squad leader the last thing I'd ever order would be to stop in the open and fire a PF at an enemy tank. I'd keep running to the cover appointed for me and THEN take a slightly longer-range shot.

Obviously I'm not covering all the ramifications etc but I think a more proper use of MOVE and FAST would yield better results for most.

------------------

___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

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That brings up a point I was wondering about..let's say you're advancing under enemy fire (not charging with bayonets,mind you, a few hundred meters away). Is it better to run or walk? To a certain degree, I'm visually disturbed by the figures advancing unflinchingly. When they are suppressed (and thus go down), I subconciously think it's a good thing, as they are taking cover. smile.gif

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Run.

If you are under fire and aren't in range to fire back then your primary aim should be to get out of the line of fire as quickly as possible.

E.g. In a test game I managed to charge 4 0.5 calibre HMGs with infantry on the run.

I used a 28 strong platoon to charge the 24 US infantry manning the 0.5 calibre HMGs. I lost 15 men but I wiped out the HMGs.

If I had walked across the ground towards the HMGs I would have been wiped out without doing any damage back.

I run a LOT as my opponents will tell you wink.gif BUT I know exactly why I'm running and I know when to walk too wink.gif. The fast charge is all part of my playing style.

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___________

Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

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Guest Big Time Software

Fionn is basically correct here. RUN should be the exceptional commnad, MOVE the norm. If your guys come under fire while running, then they may or may not change their path/action. It depends on the circumstances. If range or cover doesn't allow this, then the unit will probably keep going, even if it is directly at the enemy.

We had a good discussion about this a while back with a bunch of folks, including those in service of various countries (past and present). The thing that came back from them is that charging at close range is generally better than anything else, offensive or defensive. The point here is that once you are too close there is no going back. Unfortunately, some units are better armed and/or trained for such moves so you will see various degrees of effectiveness. A well trained VG SMG Squad will probably wreck most units at close range even while on the run. A standard WH rifle squad isn't going to do nearly as well.

Having said all this, I will talk to Charles about the problems when units literally run by each other. This isn't supposed to happen IIRC, so there might be something wrong. But we are talking a handful of meters here, not the sort of stand off PS/PF/Bazooka range you would need to score a kill.

Steve

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