CMRT - BETA AAR - German Side

[Callidus87]

Point Cost were never about industrial cost and more of balance costs. And we don't know how effective these things are. with 2 cannons and 20 shots or so infantrie strafing is out of the question leaving it attacking tanks.

[Vanir Ausf B]

If a sniper team is 24 points, how cool is it to get a tank killing sniper team--that flies--for 26 points. Quoth the Gunny "Outstanding!"

I don't know if 26 points is appropriate or not, but a sniper team will not occasionally shoot at your own troops.

[John Kettler]

Yeknodathon,

No. They didn't have whole Luftflotten of Ju-87Gs. They're all in III Gruppe, StG 2, as seen below.

http://www.ww2.dk/air/attack/sg2.htm

When Op Bagration started, Rudel was running the Gruppe, transitioning to Geschwader commander a few weeks before Bagration ended. Either way, the entire Ju-87G force, and there wasn't much of it based on faint recollection, was still in III Gruppe.

Geschwaderkommodoren:

Obstlt Hans-Karl Stepp, 18.10.43 - 31.7.44

Obstlt Hans Ulrich Rudel, 1.8.44 - 8.2.45

Maj Friedrich Lang (acting), 9.2.45 - 13.2.45

Obstlt Kurt Kuhlmey (acting), 14.3.45 - 20.4.45

Oberst Hans-Ulrich Rudel, 4.45 - 8.5.45

III. Gruppe:

Gruppenkommandeure:

Hptm Hans Ulrich Rudel, 18.10.43 - 31.7.44

Maj Lothar Lau, 1.8.44 - 22.1.45

Hptm Dr. Hans Müller, 12.2.45 - 8.5.45

Formed 18.10.43 in Pervomaisk from III./St.G.2 with:

Stab III./SG2 from Stab III./St.G.2

7./SG2 from 7./St.G.2 and 7./Sch.G.1

8./SG2 from 8./St.G.2

9./SG2 from 9./St.G.2

Since Arabic numerals 7, 8,9 precede the /St.G.2, we are dealing with Staffel organization, which means, per the Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaffe_Organization#Staffel

"Staffel

A Staffel was the equivalent of a squadron. It usually had twelve aircraft but some had as few as five or six aircraft due to losses, while others had as many as 16. It would be led by a Staffelkapitän ranking Hauptmann, Oberleutnant or sometimes Leutnant. Staffeln were numbered consecutively in Arabic numerals within a Geschwader irrespective of the Gruppe they came under. The Staffel designation would be similar to that of the Gruppe except for the Arabic numerals. For example, Staffel 6 of Jagdgeschwader 27 would be designated 6./JG 27. The Staffeln of Gruppe I would be numbered 1, 2 and 3. Those of Gruppe II would be numbered 4, 5 and 6. This was continued for the rest of the groups."

So 3 Staffel = 12 aircraft/Staffel x 3 = 36 Ju-87G. Best case. Depleted strength (and probably not even 50% level) would therefore translate to 18 Ju-87G.

Fenris,

Thanks. Missed that in reading a bunch of threads and doing research on the fly. Glad to know BFC's looking into this pricing issue.

Regards,

John Kettler

[JTorgersson]

John Kettler, I'd not be very concerned about it being any kind of underpriced overpowered AT sniper given how hard it was to hit with those guns efficently and its VERY limited ammo supply (6 or 12 shots/gun depending on model, both guns firing simultaniously)

Though the rarity rating/price atm seem very generous. But as they said, WiP.

[Callidus87]

Yeknodathon,

No. They didn't have whole Luftflotten of Ju-87Gs. They're all in III Gruppe, StG 2, as seen below.

http://www.ww2.dk/air/attack/sg2.htm

When Op Bagration started, Rudel was running the Gruppe, transitioning to Geschwader commander a few weeks before Bagration ended. Either way, the entire Ju-87G force, and there wasn't much of it based on faint recollection, was still in III Gruppe.

Geschwaderkommodoren:

Obstlt Hans-Karl Stepp, 18.10.43 - 31.7.44

Obstlt Hans Ulrich Rudel, 1.8.44 - 8.2.45

Maj Friedrich Lang (acting), 9.2.45 - 13.2.45

Obstlt Kurt Kuhlmey (acting), 14.3.45 - 20.4.45

Oberst Hans-Ulrich Rudel, 4.45 - 8.5.45

III. Gruppe:

Gruppenkommandeure:

Hptm Hans Ulrich Rudel, 18.10.43 - 31.7.44

Maj Lothar Lau, 1.8.44 - 22.1.45

Hptm Dr. Hans Müller, 12.2.45 - 8.5.45

Formed 18.10.43 in Pervomaisk from III./St.G.2 with:

Stab III./SG2 from Stab III./St.G.2

7./SG2 from 7./St.G.2 and 7./Sch.G.1

8./SG2 from 8./St.G.2

9./SG2 from 9./St.G.2

Since Arabic numerals 7, 8,9 precede the /St.G.2, we are dealing with Staffel organization, which means, per the Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaffe_Organization#Staffel

"Staffel

A Staffel was the equivalent of a squadron. It usually had twelve aircraft but some had as few as five or six aircraft due to losses, while others had as many as 16. It would be led by a Staffelkapitän ranking Hauptmann, Oberleutnant or sometimes Leutnant. Staffeln were numbered consecutively in Arabic numerals within a Geschwader irrespective of the Gruppe they came under. The Staffel designation would be similar to that of the Gruppe except for the Arabic numerals. For example, Staffel 6 of Jagdgeschwader 27 would be designated 6./JG 27. The Staffeln of Gruppe I would be numbered 1, 2 and 3. Those of Gruppe II would be numbered 4, 5 and 6. This was continued for the rest of the groups."

So 3 Staffel = 12 aircraft/Staffel x 3 = 36 Ju-87G. Best case. Depleted strength (and probably not even 50% level) would therefore translate to 18 Ju-87G.

Fenris,

Thanks. Missed that in reading a bunch of threads and doing research on the fly. Glad to know BFC's looking into this pricing issue.

Regards,

John Kettler

Where did you get the Information that all G models where in that Schlachtgeschwader?

Your link tells us that all JU87 G where in 10.(Pz)/SG2 and not in 3. Gruppe.

Same link tells us that the 10. Gruppe had a maximum of 18 G-2 in 9.44 the whole Geschwader something like 20.

So I'm totaly confused by your post combined with the link you provided.

Perhabs I just can't read those spreadsheets correctly. totaly possible.

acording to wikipedia 202 /U 87 G Models where build in the War, so yeah those things were realy rare.

[BFCElvis]

Here is my final set up.

In the area to the east of OBJ BLAU I have spread a section across a fairly wide area. My intention is to give the appearance of a larger force and slow any advance. I have split every squad in the section and have most hidden in trees behind hedges. Every unit in the section has been given orders to hide and have a very small covered arc. I want to go as long as possible without being seen.

Back toward OBJ GELB, I have set all my mines close together in the thick woods. I have placed one of my sections behind the mines and right now I am considering them to be reserves. They can drop back to defend GELB if necessary or move south or west as needed. Otherwise GELB is defended by a MG42.

I went back and forth about my thoughts surrounding ROT and decided to go with my first instinct. One thing I failed to check out before purchasing the MG42s for this area was the 2 story buildings. The upper floors don't have windows!! After playing around with set up locations, I found enough that make me happy and comfortable that no one is coming across the open areas without getting banged up a little. I have parked allthree of my AFVs behind buildings in this area. However, leaving them there to defend that VL is not my real plan. I don't want to commit them until I have some real clickity clacky targets.

I OBJ BLAU, I have placed most of two sections. Two squads I have broken off and split and they will recon the woods to the south. The rest are ready to fight or flee.

Here are the movement orders for the two squads. They have been issued very short covered arcs and hunt, hide and pause, hunt orders.

We have played one turn so far. My recon has moved forward without contact.

[womble]

John, you are, as has been pointed out, confusing the cost-to-build of something with its in-game cost. They're not the same thing at all. If anything should represent monetary expense it should be Rarity. A WW2 weapon system costing a thousand times the cost of a tank would, after all, be rare as hen's teeth on the battlefield. Adding the cost of secondary weapon systems that have no effect whatsoever on the battlefield (the tail gunner) is also contrary to the costing method. A possibly more valid comparison would be to the cost of an ATG, which is a non-flying sniper-at-tanks. An ATG has to wait for the enemy to cross its keyhole, and is far more vulnerable to the enemy (mortars are everywhere; Flak less so, posibly). It won't shoot up an entire platoon of friendly armour by mistake though.

Ditto the experience level of the pilot. Given the separation of air and land forces, a "Green" Ju87-G pilot, even with your estimation of the necessary personal qualities, with which I have no reason to quibble, would represent that veteran (note the lack of capital) pilot on an early mission in his new steed.

And in the end, BFC refuse to quibble about points, so I'd advise not holding your breath while you wait for Steve to "explain himself".

[c3k]

The defense begins with a HUNT!

Woot!

Looks good.

[BFCElvis]

I have been reading peoples comments here about Bils style of play and offering suggestions on being more aggressive in my defense. Looking over my set up, it seems that it is well suited to do that. I don't know how far back his set up area is, so moving forward now may put me in the same position of having a static defense...just more forward. Right now, I am thinking that I will let my 4 teams continue and then hide until I have spotted him and maybe even engage him. Then pull them back and begin advancing the section to the east that is spread out and one of the sections in OBJ BLAU.

[A Canadian Cat]

Are all your units hiding? My one concern is that hiding units do not spot very well. My experience with hiding is that if my front line guys are hiding they are just waiting to die and rarely spot anything until just before bullets start flying - at them.

On the other hand if you have some guys hing and other not then I can see that reducing your visibility and allowing you a good chance to see stuff coming.

[sfhand]

I have been reading peoples comments here about Bils style of play and offering suggestions on being more aggressive in my defense. Looking over my set up, it seems that it is well suited to do that. I don't know how far back his set up area is, so moving forward now may put me in the same position of having a static defense...just more forward. Right now, I am thinking that I will let my 4 teams continue and then hide until I have spotted him and maybe even engage him. Then pull them back and begin advancing the section to the east that is spread out and one of the sections in OBJ BLAU.

Elvis, thanks for doing another AAR. As one who remembers how you got your sig line I wish you well in this endeavor. I must say, though, that the sig line makes any plan you put forward immediately suspect . Good hunting!

edit: Hmmm... immediately after posting this the sig line disappeared

[BFCElvis]

Are all your units hiding? My one concern is that hiding units do not spot very well. My experience with hiding is that if my front line guys are hiding they are just waiting to die and rarely spot anything until just before bullets start flying - at them.

On the other hand if you have some guys hing and other not then I can see that reducing your visibility and allowing you a good chance to see stuff coming.

My concerns are actually the opposite. While it's true that hiding cuts down on your ability to spot, it does not eliminate it completely. There is always someone in a team poking their head up to spot. Those are the ones that can give away a position. From what I understand about Bils scouting skills, the longer I can keep my positions hidden, the better chance I'm going to have to either surprise him or impede is ability to hone in on my defenses.

[BFCElvis]

Elvis, thanks for doing another AAR. As one who remembers how you got your sig line I wish you well in this endeavor. I must say, though, that the sig line makes any plan you put forward immediately suspect . Good hunting!

edit: Hmmm... immediately after posting this the sig line disappeared

It's still there. I wear it like a badge of honor. The last one was a bit weird and I'm not crying our grapes but I was playing a scenario that was designed by my opponent. He had far more working knowledge of the thing than I did. Also, if you remember, (unknown to me but not to Jon) we have different VLs. I thought I had almost all of mine secure....secure the point of spending the last few turns mopping up and doing things because I thought I had it wrapped up. At the time I had assumed that I had won the battle and at worst had a draw. It taght me the lesson to make sure to secure ALL of your victory conditions because your opponent may have different ones. Again, not sour grapes...just giving some insight to how thought I had played the last one.

[womble]

My concerns are actually the opposite. While it's true that hiding cuts down on your ability to spot, it does not eliminate it completely. There is always someone in a team poking their head up to spot. Those are the ones that can give away a position. From what I understand about Bils scouting skills, the longer I can keep my positions hidden, the better chance I'm going to have to either surprise him or impede is ability to hone in on my defenses.

Given the size of the map compared to the force levels applied to it, and therefore the reduced likelihood of Bil "stumbling" at short range over troops that have somehow evaded his Spidey Sense, you might get away with having your troops Hiding. Having just one guy prairie-dogging though will mean that he might manage to slide past you... which wouldn't be all bad, because he'll hit your forces' sightline somewhere and then you can wake up the relevant hidden troops.

Edit: given that he's Russian and might have SMG platoons, any infantry elements that are seen at close range before they see Bil's men coming are going to be in even more than usual...

[sburke]

It's still there. I wear it like a badge of honor. The last one was a bit weird and I'm not crying our grapes but I was playing a scenario that was designed by my opponent. He had far more working knowledge of the thing than I did. Also, if you remember, (unknown to me but not to Jon) we have different VLs. I thought I had almost all of mine secure....secure the point of spending the last few turns mopping up and doing things because I thought I had it wrapped up. At the time I had assumed that I had won the battle and at worst had a draw. It taght me the lesson to make sure to secure ALL of your victory conditions because your opponent may have different ones. Again, not sour grapes...just giving some insight to how thought I had played the last one.

Considering you have a sig that most have a very clear and humorous recollection of- you won. Damn 3 years ago already.

[sfhand]

It's still there. I wear it like a badge of honor. The last one was a bit weird and I'm not crying our grapes but I was playing a scenario that was designed by my opponent. He had far more working knowledge of the thing than I did. Also, if you remember, (unknown to me but not to Jon) we have different VLs. I thought I had almost all of mine secure....secure the point of spending the last few turns mopping up and doing things because I thought I had it wrapped up. At the time I had assumed that I had won the battle and at worst had a draw. It taght me the lesson to make sure to secure ALL of your victory conditions because your opponent may have different ones. Again, not sour grapes...just giving some insight to how thought I had played the last one.

Elvis... I just want to be clear, I wasn't taking any shots at your performance in that AAR. I've posted one AAR here and it wasn't my finest hour, so the last thing I would do is take you to task for that game; just having the stones to post an AAR, against Bil and his reputation to boot, wins you lots of street cred in my book. Plus, that Bois scenario is brutal. As a BoB fan I remember Lt. Dykes master plan at Foy (per the miniseries, I don't recall if it was outlined that way in the book), that memory is the basis for my comment about taking your plans seriously - not your performance.

About hiding infantry... I have a very vivid memory of leaving my troops hidden one turn too long and having c3k's boys gun them down where they lay, target arcs be damned.

[A Canadian Cat]

My concerns are actually the opposite. While it's true that hiding cuts down on your ability to spot, it does not eliminate it completely.

OK as long as you are going into this with your eyes open - so to speak. I never use hiding like you are because I find that it *does* effectively mean no spotting. I sincerely hope to be proven wrong.

[Vark]

Don't forget Bil's Beholder doctrine, eyes everywhere, then zap, zap!!

[BLSTK]

As a compromise I will tend to "hide" everyone except the FO. I realize this makes the FO more vulnerable but feel his ability to spot will also translate into an improved ability to conceal his own movement, thereby reducing the odds of finding the first bullet.

[BFCElvis]

Elvis... I just want to be clear, I wasn't taking any shots at your performance in that AAR. I've posted one AAR here and it wasn't my finest hour, so the last thing I would do is take you to task for that game; just having the stones to post an AAR, against Bil and his reputation to boot, wins you lots of street cred in my book. Plus, that Bois scenario is brutal. As a BoB fan I remember Lt. Dykes master plan at Foy (per the miniseries, I don't recall if it was outlined that way in the book), that memory is the basis for my comment about taking your plans seriously - not your performance.

About hiding infantry... I have a very vivid memory of leaving my troops hidden one turn too long and having c3k's boys gun them down where they lay, target arcs be damned.

I didn't take it that way but rereading my response it sounded like I did. My bad.

[Battlefront.com]

Just a quick comment about air power pricing... we've made some adjustments to accuracy that makes air attacks far less effective than they once were. That needs to be taken into consideration.

Steve

[Migo441]

Elvis,

Could you elaborate a bit about your choice to place your armor at Objective Rot?

It looks like their position is ~ 500m from Objective Blau. I assume you would prefer to employ your armor as a quasi-standoff weapon and engage the enemy at the longest practicable range.

Given the approaches in and around Objective Blau and the available LOS from Objective Rot, do you have a sense of likely ranges and firing positions? Will your tanks have to move some distance or are there good positions close at hand?

Naturally, we keep in mind Moltke the Elder's warning that "no plan survives contact with the enemy" but I was just curious if you had any preconceptions about your armor or they are a purely reactive force and you won't know how they will be employed until, suddenly, you do know.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Are all your units hiding? My one concern is that hiding units do not spot very well. My experience with hiding is that if my front line guys are hiding they are just waiting to die and rarely spot anything until just before bullets start flying - at them.

My experience is that it isn't necessarily the poor spotting that kills you, it's the reluctance to open fire even on spotted enemy units inside the covered arc. They usually have to be getting shot at before they will un-hide to return fire on their own. I think this TacAI behavior should no longer be necessary now that we have covered arcs.

[BFCElvis]

Elvis,

Could you elaborate a bit about your choice to place your armor at Objective Rot?

It looks like their position is ~ 500m from Objective Blau. I assume you would prefer to employ your armor as a quasi-standoff weapon and engage the enemy at the longest practicable range.

Given the approaches in and around Objective Blau and the available LOS from Objective Rot, do you have a sense of likely ranges and firing positions? Will your tanks have to move some distance or are there good positions close at hand?

Naturally, we keep in mind Moltke the Elder's warning that "no plan survives contact with the enemy" but I was just curious if you had any preconceptions about your armor or they are a purely reactive force and you won't know how they will be employed until, suddenly, you do know.

I put them there for flexibility of movement. I wanted them out of sight from any possible initial contact so that I might be able to determine how/where that contact happens. It is also fairly centrally located and fairly open to make movement of armor easier that a more confined wooded area. That is the idea anyway. We'll see how it works out.

Also, LOS out of the Rot area isn't that good. The MG42 team on the second floor of the farmhouse is the only one that can really see beyond the adjacent fields.

[Vinnart]

My experience is that it isn't necessarily the poor spotting that kills you, it's the reluctance to open fire even on spotted enemy units inside the covered arc. They usually have to be getting shot at before they will un-hide to return fire on their own. I think this TacAI behavior should no longer be necessary now that we have covered arcs.

I have to concur with what Ian, and Vanir said that HIDE is not optimal behavior for ambush. I found this out the hard way my very first CMx2 PBEM. I did HIDE/w short cover and it was a disaster! Luckily I recovered and won, but it was a good learning experience. My men were attacked by trucks/w weapons at close range (within 25m),and they did not spot one even when they started to fire at my guys. They did not spot as well, and react quickly to fire back going to cowering instead.

It is still better to give the HIDE with arc when evading if enemy contact is possible vs. HIDE alone as alone they will just cower. With the arc at least they may ambush, but will likely not as quickly. The problem Is HIDE sets EVADING behavior as the priority so reaction to enemy contact is secondary. Without a doubt HIDE gives a concealment bonus better than prone in sighting test I have done hotseat. I believe Hide implies laying flat with face down like you want to hide from someone, or incoming arty. Prone I think implies being up on your elbows as in the prone firing position. There is a difference in these postures. So there is the dilemma; do you want better concealment, or quicker reaction? From my experience prone in concealment terrain + cover arc is the best compromise for ambush and recon. Give either a short slow order, or slow order on the same action square if you don’t want them to move to manually control units to go prone. Keep checking them though as after awhile one may take a knee depending on terrain. If they do, give the slow order again. I would keep most Hidden till you feel contact is getting close then unhide + prone(slow), and Keep a few prone + unhidden at all times (spotters).