WeGo TCP/IP - hurrrrah

[Maarten]

The biggest impact is that 64 bit programs can use more memory. 32 Bit ones are limited to some 4 GB where 64 bit ones can in theory use some... erm... what's 2 to the pwoer of 64 again? That in bytes. Which is lots. This is why Steve mentioned having to move to 64 bits before being able to do the proper playback and such.

This in turn translates to a bigger possible game (bigger maps, more units), provided the rest of the hardware keeps up of course.

Downside is that 64 bit programs will simply not run on 32 bit computers, although vice versa is generally not a problem. There are still a ton of 32 bit systems out there. I'd wager they make for the majority of PC's. So it won't be an easy decision.

Other downside is that a bigger game leads to more whining from us for more features.

An at first not so obvious effect would be that 64 bit architecture can be more precise with floating point numbers which could lead to a more precise, though not necessarily better, similation.

For a quick intro on floating point numbers have a look at:

[Jock Tamson]

january 2014 50% of Steam users (5 million online as I type this) are using Win7 64Bit

[Mord]

Thanks Steve and Maarten. Got it.

Maarten...my brain melted at about the 4 minute mark on that video.

Mord.

[Catacol Highlander]

The return of some kind of tcp WeGo will see my return to CM for the first time since CMAK. BF have missed out on a lot of my money by taking out the feature that made CM a true wargame... but I am delighted at the prospect of a return to something more thoughtful rather than the click-fest that the few games of CMBN offered me.

Inability to rewatch the replay aside, this is absolutely good news.

[Battlefront.com]

Downside is that 64 bit programs will simply not run on 32 bit computers, although vice versa is generally not a problem. There are still a ton of 32 bit systems out there. I'd wager they make for the majority of PC's. So it won't be an easy decision.

Yes, and it also requires someone to have more than 4GB of RAM installed. How many of our customers have both 64bit OS and 6+ GB of RAM? Not as many as we need to make mandatory features reliant up the extra power.

What we're going to have to do is come up with a "cut off" for stuff that people with 32bit or less than 6GB literally can't use. For example, super big maps or on-the-fly playback.

This sucks for us big time. It's why we haven't prioritized making a 64bit version. If we're not wiling to make features that some portion of our customer base can't use, then there's no incentive to make a 64bit version. But it seems like enough of our customer base can theoretically use 64bit addressing (*ALL* of our Mac customers can) to make it worth considering. How many of those actually have the RAM for it is another question.

Steve

[A Canadian Cat]

How many of our customers have both 64bit OS and 6+ GB of RAM? Not as many as we need to make mandatory features reliant up the extra power.

Yeah always a tough question. You guys are in a better position to answer than I am. For what it is worth I have been using a 64bit machine for several years now but it only has 4Gb - I bought it just as the 32bit machines were starting to disappear. For me it is at the end of its life and I put together a plan to replace it several months ago - house hold comptroller vetoed the plan at the time but even she knows it needs replacing. I consider myself to be one who holds on to tech longer than my friends and then I don't buy the top, top end when I replace it. But I run with very tech greedy friends so my comparisons are a bit skewed

[Doug Williams]

So, I'm being sandbagged by you sluggards who are still running a 32 bit OS and have 4 gig of ram? Geez guys, join the 21st century!

Joking (kinda).

I7 3.5 GHz CPU, 16 gig ram, GeForce GTX 680 video card.

I know this isn't a flight sim forum, but time to pony up some $$ for a real computer so we can all go forward. We're all old, right? Did you guys work for a living, back in the day?

[sfhand]

I find it kind of amazing that many of the people who want the game to do more expect it to happen on antiquated tech. I am very pleased to hear Windows 64 bit support is being considered and I hope it arrives in the near future. I would wager that most 64 bit Windows platforms can hold at least 8GB of RAM. I know my 6 year old laptop *which I consider to be antiquated in its own right* can. I am not surprised the 4GB limit is being run into as the game continues to evolve.

[Battlefront.com]

What we must avoid is creating two games. For example, let's say we thought of a cool new way to simulate Urban combat that would consume about 1GB of RAM. If we implemented that and mandated 64bit and 6GB of RAM, we'd then be presenting two entirely different gaming experiences. That's a non-starter for us.

Instead, doing something like allowing for bigger maps or 15 second replay seems to be acceptable. We're not taking away anything from existing customers since they don't exist. Since the gameplay itself is identical, there's no conflict there either. Plus, such features are optional and some wouldn't use them even if they had been available for the last 7 years. Lastly, it isn't fair to the community as a whole to hold back the progress of the game because someone is limping along with an old computer. In include myself in that mix because mine is a 5 year old laptop

This sort of thing is, in our minds, acceptable PROVIDED it's cleanly presented and not harmful to existing customers.

Steve

[Ithikial_AU]

Chalk up another user who is happy to hear the 64bit news, even if it is down the road a bit.

Outside of referring to the Steam hardware surveys which I'm guessing wouldn't be a good snapshot of Battlefront Customer computers... have you guys ever considered surveying all of us about current PC specs just so you have an idea of when to initiate the move to 64bit?

[Pandur]

is it possible to make a official or unofficial 3rd party programm, that runs maybe as a overlay next to CMx2 that simply automates PBEM turn transfer? it should scan the outgoing folder, when a new file pops up, you can select it and send it tcp/ip to the ip of your opponent with the press of a send button within the game(overlay window)? no "start" turning off game, send mail, receive mail, turn on game, load save, play(finally) ,->go to "start"

it should get rid of all the stuff you can not do within the game and should make "mail" no longer necessary by sending the files directly.

i tryed a pbem by sending all the files by skype, and not fiddle with retarded email like in a past long gone, that worked somewhat but still all the disruption in the gameplay

rly how is that so hard that it hasnt been done so far? most ppl should have enough upload, i got like 170kb/s upload and even if you have half of that you are fine.

if BFC would make one to supplement the "classic" PBEM mode and steamline it so you can play it like a normal game, more or less, id use it asap.

i mean what i want form the programm is extremely simple on the first look, but maybe there are problems i dont see?

[Collingwood]

I can imagine such a program might be called "head to head helper"... and it could use drop-box.

Just kidding - search these forums for H2HH

[Jock Tamson]

What we must avoid is creating two games. For example, let's say we thought of a cool new way to simulate Urban combat that would consume about 1GB of RAM. If we implemented that and mandated 64bit and 6GB of RAM, we'd then be presenting two entirely different gaming experiences. That's a non-starter for us.

Instead, doing something like allowing for bigger maps or 15 second replay seems to be acceptable. We're not taking away anything from existing customers since they don't exist. Since the gameplay itself is identical, there's no conflict there either. Plus, such features are optional and some wouldn't use them even if they had been available for the last 7 years. Lastly, it isn't fair to the community as a whole to hold back the progress of the game because someone is limping along with an old computer. In include myself in that mix because mine is a 5 year old laptop

This sort of thing is, in our minds, acceptable PROVIDED it's cleanly presented and not harmful to existing customers.

Steve

Let's throw something else into the mix. On April 12th, Microsoft support for Windows XP will cease, so it will be a deprecated platform.

That leaves Vista and Win 7 32 Bit users. They make up only 12% of Steam users - I think it is fair to use Steam stats as a view of people who play games on computers. Many many titles that fall into this genre are available on Steam.

All current versions of OSX are 64 Bit. Battlefront already mandate 64 Bit for these users for Red Thunder as it requires 10.6 OSX minimum.

Windows 7 64 Bit makes up 50% of Steam users.

Windows 8 64 Bit makes up 20% of Steam users.

So I would not regard mandating a 64 Bit OS for the next engine as a dangerous step.

I also don't think it would be unreasonable to mandate >4GB RAM. RAM is cheap and, other than on a sealed unit like a MacBook Air - which does not meet the minimum requirements for CMx2 anyway - it is trivial to upgrade.

At some point, holding back the series because of deprecated Operating systems and low spec computers has also got to become a "non starter". Particularly given these stats, which indicate that that user base will be rapidly dwindling.

[poesel]

I also don't think it would be unreasonable to mandate >4GB RAM. RAM is cheap and, other than on a sealed unit like a MacBook Air - which does not meet the minimum requirements for CMx2 anyway - it is trivial to upgrade.

I'm playing CM on a 1.86GHz Core 2 Duo MacBook Air with 4Gb of RAM and it runs fine. Especially since the last speed improvements I can run it on the next to best settings.

OTOH I wouldn't mind a >4Gb requirement for CM since it would make my decision process for a new machine easier.

[Battlefront.com]

At some point, holding back the series because of deprecated Operating systems and low spec computers has also got to become a "non starter". Particularly given these stats, which indicate that that user base will be rapidly dwindling.

Yes and no. Yes that we absolutely can not have CM held back by a small, and ever shrinking, minority of customers. Obviously we do feel that it's gotten to the point where the possibility of introducing 64bit isn't going to blow up in our faces. HOWEVER... the Steam numbers are considered skewed towards more current systems because Steam attracts a lot of people with the best systems. CM has always, and will always, attract a range of customers tilted more towards middle to lower end systems.

If we take Steam's number, ignore the customers currently using XP, and bump it up by 50% we get about 18% using supported 32bit Windows. Take that number and water it down a bit to account for MacOS and we have, oh, somewhere around 15% of our customer base using supported 32bit OSes. That's a significant number today, so if we were to make a 64bit version today we would still produce a 32bit version. Next year? Not likely.

As for the RAM, I don't think this is an issue yet. We don't have any design goals which require more RAM for core game functionality. Just bigger maps. This is something we feel comfortable with moving forward with because it's new, optional, and not universally desired functionality that can be cleanly tied to RAM availability.

Steve

[Jock Tamson]

I'm playing CM on a 1.86GHz Core 2 Duo MacBook Air with 4Gb of RAM and it runs fine. Especially since the last speed improvements I can run it on the next to best settings.

OTOH I wouldn't mind a >4Gb requirement for CM since it would make my decision process for a new machine easier.

That's interesting to know. I have got an Air as well and I have never bothered putting CMx2 on it because it doesn't have a discrete Graphics card. May give it a try.

[Guest]

Apple's integrated card drivers are actually halfway decent. My Macbook Air with 4GB and an HD4000 plays the game quite nicely.

[AttorneyAtWar]

Speaking of Steam, is there any possibility we can see Combat Mission on it any time soon?

I would love Combat Mission to be more popular, and to get it out there. Steam would be a great avenue for something like that!

[Doug Williams]

Speaking of Steam, is there any possibility we can see Combat Mission on it any time soon?

I would love Combat Mission to be more popular, and to get it out there. Steam would be a great avenue for something like that!

I'm not so sure I want to see the CM series for sale on Steam. I would cringe every time I read a negative review on Steam because of the graphics, or "why did my zerg rush tactics not work", etc.

No. Let's keep the riff raff out, IMO. Anyone with a genuine desire for a game like CM will find it without Steam.

[Jock Tamson]

I'm not so sure I want to see the CM series for sale on Steam. I would cringe every time I read a negative review on Steam because of the graphics, or "why did my zerg rush tactics not work", etc.

No. Let's keep the riff raff out, IMO. Anyone with a genuine desire for a game like CM will find it without Steam.

Crusader Kings II is one of the biggest selling strategy games on Steam. Anyone who knows that game will understand the point I am making - Steam is not full of kids.

[AttorneyAtWar]

I'm not so sure I want to see the CM series for sale on Steam. I would cringe every time I read a negative review on Steam because of the graphics, or "why did my zerg rush tactics not work", etc.

No. Let's keep the riff raff out, IMO. Anyone with a genuine desire for a game like CM will find it without Steam.

I understand what you are saying, but I would still like to see Combat Mission be more "Out there". I think negative publicity is better than no publicity when it pertains to something like this, there will be people who buy this and figure out that they like it even if they didn't think they would. Hell only put up the CMBN or CMFI demo on Steam and see how people react!

[Jock Tamson]

Apple's integrated card drivers are actually halfway decent. My Macbook Air with 4GB and an HD4000 plays the game quite nicely.

Yes, my Air dual boots with Windows 7 and it is noticeable that some OpenGL software seems to run better under OSX.

[Doug Williams]

Crusader Kings II is one of the biggest selling strategy games on Steam. Anyone who knows that game will understand the point I am making - Steam is not full of kids.

You probably have a point there. I imagine most of the kiddies are playing console games these days.

Regardless, I still don't think we will see CM on Steam any time soon, because I believe Steam controls the pricing, and I don't see BFC giving up control in the near future.

I'm grateful that BFC has been managed in such a way that they haven't been swallowed up by some soulless giant game corporation......yet.

[simmox]

there is already a big CM following on steam,im a member of 3 groups,and,the game isnt even available to purchase through steam.

[para]

Chalk up another user who is happy to hear the 64bit news, even if it is down the road a bit.

Outside of referring to the Steam hardware surveys which I'm guessing wouldn't be a good snapshot of Battlefront Customer computers... have you guys ever considered surveying all of us about current PC specs just so you have an idea of when to initiate the move to 64bit?

I like this idea Ithikial_AU.