IntruderPl Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Hi, my few last battles were in the cities. In building to building fights one of my nightmares was AI pathfinding and exiting houses. The real pain in the *** is lack of command that tells your infantry which doorway should they use to exit the building to proceed with the waypoint. A FACE command might be used to select exit doorway no matter where the next waypoint leads. This would be VERY useful to cease randomisation of exiting in several situations AND would not stall your soldiers for life threatning seconds on the first waypoint you now NEED to put to determine other than direct route to waypoint. Example : Squad on 1st floor, doorways to the North and South - both under fire but there's a tank to the N and just sniper to the S. All in all you want to go West. Now your toroops' route is kinda random. But what if you preffer to leave by southern door and be exposed to lighter fire? You need to put the first waypoint to the south and the next to the West where you want to go. Holding still for 5-7 seconds in the open just outside the doorway is not good - even in light fire. And what if there's a tank to the N and machinegun to the S? Both are deadly but I'd go south. Nowdays it's a Checkmate but it doesn't have to be. Solution - give additional function to FACE command to determine which way infantry should leave the building. Problem solved! Your soldiers are on the 1st floor and need to exit to the south and IMMEDIATELY go to the West. You give a face waypoint to the south and the first waypoint to the West. They gather at southern exit and leave the building to reach the waypoint. You might ask "how would you solve the situation if your men already have face direction and are gathered toward south but they had no waypoint previously". Well, simple depending how devs would do it and what the engine would let do. 1) if soldiers already had southern FACE giving a waypoint to the west might already cause them to leave via southern doorway and proceed west. If the engine would not let it happen then comes solution #2 2) if troops are facing one direction (any) on the order phase you'd give them fresh waypoint to on location where they are, put face target on that waypoint (south) and then the text waypoint to the west. Regards, Intruder 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hister Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Does making more waypoints not help already in this quest of yours? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodin Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Hister The problem with waypoints is the pause between them which can cause all kinds of trouble in city fighting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hister Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Yes, forgot about this - I hate them pauses on waypoints. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 OT Regarding pauses at way points: Those pauses are for everyone in the unit to reach their destination. After which they will continue on to the next way point. Smaller teams means less guys moving which means less time for everyone to find a place at the way point. I have noticed that split teams suffer less pausing. Now if you split a squad and then move them to the same way points I am not sure if you will still see any benefit because they still have to avoid all the same bodies along the way. Worth testing perhaps. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 The pause for a small team to collect itself at a waypoint after a short bound isn't very long, unless they've had to single file through a door, when it's just long enough to get them into trouble.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeaker Posted January 11, 2014 Share Posted January 11, 2014 I'm sure this has been suggested before, but why can't infantry jump out of a window? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 I'm sure this has been suggested before, but why can't infantry jump out of a window? Yes, lots has been written about it here. Long story short: it's just not something that was/is done all that much. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kulik Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 It would be great if "fast" in/out of building would make soldiers use windows. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 It would be great if "fast" in/out of building would make soldiers use windows. There needs to be some kinds of penalty. Practically everything you do in CM should involve a cost/benefit decision. If you view leaping out windows as a benefit (and you must, else why would you do it?) then there needs to be an associated cost, otherwise everyone will just be having their guys leap out the windows all the time which would, overall, be a Bad Thing™ Incidentally, if the auto pause at waypoints for your teams to reorganise is really causing you that much grief, perhaps you could alter the way you play (use smoke? go the other way? use more suppressing fire?), instead of requesting the devs change the game to suit your playstyle? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 It would be great if "fast" in/out of building would make soldiers use windows. Not Fast; that's too commonly used for "controlled" movement, and actually getting through windows in good order in combat gear with a weapon isn't so much faster than going through the door, unless you've got time to prepare (and Hollywood sFx ). The "Evade" button though, that could allow such shenanigans, leaving the team outside the building in bad order, possibly with injuries (but, for example, no longer threatened by the SturmTiger that just appeared). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeaker Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 How about "Slow" through windows? The aim, after all, is for soldiers to evac the building without going through the front door, ie, discreetly. This would also simulate the time taken for the blokes to open or smash open a window, getting rid of any larger pieces of glass, and removing/passing through to mucker/rewearing webbing. I've (IRL) done building assaults, and the a common method of assaulting a building is anything BUT the front door, as it's too obvious. the preferred method is to make your own door (using charges... could that be an option to use assault charges? "ASSAULT" in a particular direction would blow a wall out and could be used going in and out of a building) or through a first floor window using ladders or grappling hooks. Obviously this scenario was in a conventional war when damage to private property was lower on the priority scale. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 I've (IRL) done building assaults, and the a common method of assaulting a building is anything BUT the front door, as it's too obvious. the preferred method is to make your own door (using charges... could that be an option to use assault charges? "ASSAULT" in a particular direction would blow a wall out and could be used going in and out of a building) or through a first floor window using ladders or grappling hooks. Interesting. Previous 1st person experiences with building entry recounted on here (where making your own door wasn't an option) have seemed to give the sense that windows weren't an option either. In the sort of scenario that CM's depicting, I can't see making upper storey entry (presumably to surprise the ground floor defenders) being an option, as windows usually line up and the ground floor defenders would just shoot the escaladers off their ladders. Stealthy surprise entry isn't what we're looking at on the CM battlefield (apart from blowing holes in blank walls... ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 We had very long discussions about window entries back when we made Shock Force. First with testers prior to release, then with general public. Lots and lots of veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan weighed in on the subject. The basic consensus was that going through windows was often totally impractical (too small, too high, barred, etc.), too dangerous (if anybody inside knows you're coming, you're vulnerable), and too hard for the defender to reasonably discourage (in real life someone could be tasked to watch the back of the house). Successful assaults through windows generally involved a certain amount of preparation, such as a ladder and something to smash the glass. Obviously going through windows IS done and CAN be beneficial, it's just difficult for us to cleanly and easily support it. Unfortunately a game like Combat Mission requires generalization for it to work as a game and yet reasonably portray real life situations. In actual combat there is probably 10 exceptions to every general rule. It's very difficult to simulate those exceptions without them becoming the standard. The example we've used since CMx1 days is the ASL "tinder" rules where you can light fire to something. While certainly deliberately setting a fire was done in real life here and there, gamers used it as a standard tactic. And that's not right at all. Unfortunately exceptional rules, no matter how carefully restricted, get overused if there's a benefit to them. Because there's no point putting in something that has no benefit, by definition any exceptional behavior will be overused. Then we wind up chasing our tails trying to prevent people using something we spent time coding/testing. Better to just leave it out. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 As to the original question... If you have a unit already positioned along the wall with the door you wish to use as an exit, that should cause the TacAI to move them out that door and not another one. In other words, Face should already do what is requested. Keep in mind that the way pathing works the TacAI tries to take the most direct route possible. Which means if you plot a single waypoint to the south, even if it 1000m away, the unit should try to leave via the south door. If you instead make a waypoint that is due west of the building the unit will likely exit out of whichever door is closer. If the western waypoint is a little bit to the north it will likely favor the north door, if the waypoint is a little to the south it will likely favor the south door. I say "likely" here because in a real battle situation there's a lot of things going on that can influence the outcome. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeaker Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 We had very long discussions... I completely agree with what you said, I was only using the example to illustrate that it can be done if the situation allows, but you're quite right, it was not the norm by any means. and therefore I can see it would be difficult to include without it becoming the standard tactic, making the game less realistic. But going back to my idea in parentheses, could assault charges be utilised to make your own entry and, in extreme cases, exit points? Perhaps with some level of suppression to building occupants when it goes off? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 But going back to my idea in parentheses, could assault charges be utilised to make your own entry and, in extreme cases, exit points? Perhaps with some level of suppression to defenders when it goes off? All this is already in the game, and has been for a very long time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeaker Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 All this is already in the game, and has been for a very long time. Damn, I did wonder when I suggested it if it was already in! Thanks, I shall be trying that forthwith. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kulik Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 There needs to be some kinds of penalty. Practically everything you do in CM should involve a cost/benefit decision. If you view leaping out windows as a benefit (and you must, else why would you do it?) then there needs to be an associated cost, otherwise everyone will just be having their guys leap out the windows all the time which would, overall, be a Bad Thing™ Agreed, it may be unstealthy, stamina expensive, and as BF stated, there may be a certain risk involved like chance of light injury or random troops getting stuck for several seconds. Getting in could be more safe than getting in, though. At some point in time, i would like to see buildings adjusted for defense, these would be extremely dangerous to enter this way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Damn, I did wonder when I suggested it if it was already in! Thanks, I shall be trying that forthwith. Worth noting: it's nothing to do with the "Assault" command as you were musing earlier. Holes in walls are either made by HE chucking high calibre weapons or by infantry equipped (explicitly - listed in their info panels) with "demolitions charges" which are an in-game abstraction that represent pre-prepared frame charges, mousehole charges, satchel charges, bangalore torpedoes and the kind of barely portable charge used to blow holes in Bocage, all in one handy packet that doesn't have to be nominated beforehand so that we lucky people don't have to play "Combat Mission: Explosive Munitions"... And they use the Blast command to do it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeaker Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Thanks for the clarification womble, I have a few teams with demo charges holed up in buildings, I shall tell them to add a new 'window' next time I want them to move to try it out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Yep, and that feature works very well, especially when you're trying to enter a room that is occupied by the enemy. The blast will stun / suppress the enemy for plenty of enough time for your troops to take them out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Pauses at waypoints to form up the unit can be minimized by breaking your squad up into individual teams. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Pauses at waypoints to form up the unit can be minimized by breaking your squad up into individual teams. Which, again, is nearly mandatory for MOUT in the first place to minimise crowding and maximise firing opportunities, mutual support and flexibility 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Damn, I did wonder when I suggested it if it was already in! Thanks, I shall be trying that forthwith. You can even do 2nd, 3rd etc floor entries between buildings that are next to each other. One of my opponents used it on me once: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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