New file at the Repository: Uk Ab helluva take over Op Market GArden (2013-12-21)

[Erwin]

Ok, I carefully reread the very explicit briefing and I think my actions have been completely in line with my instructions. 1) Destroy Bunkers 2) Take the dam area 3) Link up at the central LZ zone 4) Defend the LZ's vs attack.

The orders also suggest advancing as far as Hill 54 but no further.

These orders are contradictory to the above tactical suggestions regarding what a player should do. As I said b4, with benefit of hindsight I completely agree with BlackMoria's assessment. However, if all one has to go on is the briefing, I suggest that a player will end up doing pretty much what I have done.

My thought is that it would be easy to edit the briefing to reflect the realities of the situation taking into account the tactical suggestions in this thread. That way the scenario itself would be perfect as is.

Also, the briefing mentions the Sidi Barani ridge but where is that? I couldn't locate it.

[snake_eye]

@Erwin,

Thanks for pointing out that you could not locate the Sidi Barani ridge. No wonder, as you will find out below.

About the briefing : I think that besides that location name error (it did happen frequently in WWII and even still today, despites all the available electronic means) the orders of the US Forces are clearly defined. Clear, Defend, Secure the LZ 1 & 2. If conditions prevails.....That means that if they have realized their primaries orders they could move a bit farther, but only if conditions prevails. That suppose that they could still defend and prevent any coming counter attack to get through LZ1. Once the Brits are passing and relieving them somehow we can say that the conditions prevails.

Well the S2 made a huge mistake wrongly naming the Sidi Bou Said ridge, Sidi Barani !

Even with their tracking device yours guys must have been puzzled about its whereabouts.

Please accept my apologies.

The Main Defence Line before the Airfield is running along these positions, Hill 54 OP and then along the Sidi Barani ridge (should have been named Sidi Bou Said !). It has two or three bunkers and as much a hull down immobilized tank positions.

Here after are some excerpts from the briefing :

1/ It is clearly indicated that some British elements are moving toward the Darya Pass

Moving toward Darya Pass

1 x Recce (WISKEY) Scimitar

5 (GOLF) Platoon

(BOURBON)

1 x Warrior Javelin

1 x Sultan Mortar Fire Controller

2/ It is clearly mentioned that the US forces primary objective is to defend and secure the 2 LZ's and that they could attempt to seize Hill 54 OP and Hassan SP if conditions prevails.

US FORCES

Our primary Objectives are to clear, secure and defend the NIRA 1 - 2 LZ's and Dam bridge approaches, to destroy their bunkers, to neutralize NIRA SP and Darya Pass defence

If conditions prevail, US Forces can attempt to seize Hill 54 OP and Hassan SP 1. They must not in any case attempt to move forward of these objectives which are part of the Objectives of the British Forces.

Here again the British Forces are warned that they will relieve on LZ1 the US Forces

BRITISH FORCES

Will rejoin by road LZ 2, With COVENTRY Forces and its attached elements, Leaving the Darya Pass clearing GOLF forces behind..

From LZ 2 to LZ 1,tThey will clear any pocket of resistance that might prevent the normal deployment of the Force on the FUP .

On LZ 1 they will relieve the US Forces and start their attack from the designated FUP toward Hill 54 OP and the Airfield..

The Darya Pass Forces with GOLF and its attached elements will clear the pass and move in the opposite valley and toward the Anti Tank ditches in front of the Sidi Barani ridge (named on the map Sidi Bou Said !) . They will move forward on the same tempo that COVENTRY, since they will cover their right flank. They will snaked through the defence obstacle and move by fire toward Sidi Barani ridge (named on the map Sidi Bou Said !)and take it. Once done they will establish an overwatch to support the main attack along the main road on their left flank.

The US Forces, ABLE, BRAVO on LZ 1 and CHARLIE and TERMINATOR on LZ 2, must link their forces, secure and prevent any possible Counter Attack to get through and reach the NIRA Dam Bridge. They must absolutely adopt a Defence Posture on a Stop Line running from Hassan village on their right, through the woods and onto the Gully on their left.

That is the only way to preserve the future FUP of the British Forces till their arrival.

The warning mentioned in the Designer Notes

The duration of the scenario is 4 hours. That has been set such a way to allow players to assault the airfield cautiously, if they feel doing it. Players wishing to reach more quickly the airfield objective can do so. However it will be foolish to do it before the British Forces arrive. It could be done, but if the airfield is reached and taken, even if the Red side surrender it would be anyway a Pyrrhic victory in term of suffered casualties. That victory would not be acceptable in a real battle.

I must admit myself that reading a briefing is fastidious, doing it is worse !. the proof of it is my Sidi Barani mistake that you have pointed out. But that means that you have read the briefing thoroughly. However, the defence posture of the Marines was not taken in account, at least sufficiently.

That is why I had underlined again in the designer Notes, the fact that to reach the airfield quickly and doing it alone, that is for the Marines, before the Brits come, would be foolish.

The players have to know that the briefing was adjusted through the multiple testing being made. At first, you have an idea. You try to put it to work with the A.I setting. Then you find that it does not match or at least is not realistic at all. You try again and again till you find that the action is somehow within the frame of the original briefing. So, you adjust it again, test it again till it seems credible. Then you finalize the briefing, reading it again and again

If you end up with a briefing that will not match the battle you are about to play, it is like expecting a pretty woman for a night at the Opera and see her coming dressed for a tennis game. The communication seems to have been wrong somewhere.

If the date was to take place at Sidi Barani, I accept to explain her why she did not found it and to tell her :

"Je vous presente, Madame, mes plus profondes et plates excuses"

Whaou, Men, I hope that this will be sufficient and that the matter will be close with her !

Cheer

[Erwin]

Don't want to beat a dead horse here, Gregory... Your briefing is very clear:

"US FORCES

Our primary Objectives are to clear, secure and defend the NIRA 1 - 2 LZ's

and Dam bridge approaches,

to destroy their bunkers,

to neutralize NIRA SP and Darya Pass defence"

Yes. I attempted to obey your orders. I discovered I had inadequate US forces, esp AT and bunker-busting capability to do the above. Realized too late after taking too many casualties that attempting to accomplish more than one or maybe two of the above objectives are not possible for the US forces - not until AFTER the Brits arrive. Briefing should warn that the US needs to WAIT until Brits arrive to attempt most of above "in coordination" with Brits.

All you have to do is edit the briefing a bit and all would be fine.

I would add either 1) A list of priorities, A, B, C.. "Prior to the British arrival, the US forces can attempt further objectives ONLY if they can accomplish earlier objectives with minimal casualties." OR 2) "Accomplish what you can (from this list of objectives) but only so long as you take minimal casualties. Wait for the Brits if you encounter stiff resistance or suffer more than minimal casualties."

This would take you a few minutes. That's all I am trying to say.

(If you have more time I would also change the time range probability % of Brit arrival so that they could arrive about 20 minutes earlier. But, that is not essential.)

[snake_eye]

Hi Erwin,

You certainly got a point. A clarification or more likely a briefing objective(s) list of priorities should help the player.

The timing of the Brits arrival is more difficult to change since it will be applied on all A.I plans without restriction. Too bad that we can't select a different timing from one A.I to the other.

Believe me I have had a hard time finding the right time, or what I consider (maybe wrongly) of arrivals for the Brits. In one testing, I had a much earlier arrival time for the Brits and it looked like if I had emptied a bucket of troops onto the enemy. It was such a wild melee that I was not at all convinced of such a possibility taking place in a real battle.

I think that this battle besides the briefing, for which we both agree has to stay that way.

I have thought however to add a third A.I plan. But the dimension of the map and the OOB will bring us toward the same timing problem, you would like me to fix.

However, I think that a V2, on the same map, could be done in the coming months, maybe with CM2 or earlier.

The Marines will be the ones moving in with Recon elements, transports and tanks. They will have air and artillery assets to move from the dam toward the airfield.

Doing a new battle will be somehow easier. A battle in the editor is built like a pyramidal structure. If you want it to look like one, you can not change too much things, once it has been built, since their replacements won't necessarily fit in the place of the ones you have changed,. Simply because having to comply to new design and or engineering needs, they are now different.

Anyway, I won't be able to do anything for a month in the next 72 hours. I don't know at the moment if I am taking away a laptop or rather a tablet. If I only take the tablet which is handy, lighter and smaller, I might be able to get in touch, but that will be all. That won't prevent me to draw some sketches about a future V2.

A last thing Erwin, I have slotted you as a volunteer for the next scenario and or appending of that one. that did work rather well with "A Helluva Road Opening"

Cheer

[Erwin]

Always delighted to help out with testing. I fully understand that it must be very hard and time-consuming to make a scenario, let alone a campaign. However, as they say in the movie biz: "Your audience doesn't care about how hard it was to make the movie. All your audience cares about is whether they enjoy the movie."

FYI: Brits arrived at 1:55. At 1:53, enemy air strafed the LZ set-up position and immobilized a Challenger and killed a Scimitar. <Aaaargh!> I don't know how to cope with effective enemy air, which can be a real bitch in CM2. (I mentioned earlier in this thread that I had a similar problem in the otherwise excellent "Road To Dinas" which stopped me "dead" in that campaign even after about 20 restarts of that particular mission including cheating by CF-ing to see where all the enemy FO's and ATGM's were!! Even after killing the ATGM's and FO's at the start of the mission, the enemy CAS in that mission decimated my AFV's and inf every bloody time - didn't seem to matter much if they were in woods or not.)

With so few AFV's, am not sure I can afford this loss. Was this a fluke, or designed?? Maybe I should abandon the mission at this point? Esp if you'll be doing a v2 at some point.

[Erwin]

Hope you don't mind an additional suggestion re the briefing.

Make the #1 priority for the US Airborne to be stopping/degrading any attacking forces attempting to reach the dam. Seems to me that the US main job is to ensure the Brits can get to the Central LZ and link up with the US there as quickly and easily as possible.

#2 would be recon and spotting enemy positions for CAS. arty and the Brits with their extra Javalins to take out.

Only after that would they be allowed to probe around and "if they encounter any serious resistance, pull back and avoid engagement until they link up with, and have the extra firepower of the Brits".

[snake_eye]

Hi Erwin,

Reading your preceding post, I thought you had it, following the incessant helicopters and fighters bomber attacks, besides the harassment of the shelling.

Your advices are sound.

I can tell you and BlackMoria will surely agree, that the enemy air asset can be frightening when it comes, but usually you get away without a scratch. The worst, I had, was an Humvee caught in the Darya pass exit and one or two Brit APC immobilized. However the artillery is to be considerate with cautious. BlackMoria if I remind it well, told me that the Hassan village had been fully flatten.

I post three pictures to show the deployment of B Marines Company and a strafing sustained by the Brits.

I won't be able to answer anymore for some time leaving finally in a few hours. Tablet and or Laptop, both of them, none eventually ?, that is going to be known shortly

I wish all of you to get a victory and at least to have a nice time playing it. I shall only recommend that you play it R.T, since it takes its real value playing that way.

Since many of you like and or prefer H2H, let me know if that complies with your needs and I could on my return made one available.

If so, I wish that BM and or Erwin agree to play the scenario against me. No mind which side they want. That could be fun to play.

Cheer to all of you

- Marines -

B Company deployment in the AO with 2 hours 11 minutes remaining on the clock. Staying in defence on LZ 1, Able and Bravo inflicted the enemy heavy casualties while Charlie rejoined from LZ 2 fighting its way along.

At that time, a close up on Able and Bravo platoons B Company deployed in defence along the gully. 2 BRDM's from a previous counter attack have been destroyed. The heavy grass around is strewn with enemies bodies

These Brits, one carrier an APC and a Scimitar, got out of that strafing without a scratch !

[Erwin]

Have a safe trip and let us know when you get back, Gregory...

You know... it would be great to have a tutorial on how best to survive enemy CAS attacks as that has always been where I suffer my heaviest losses in all CMSF games that have enemy air.

It can't be as simple as "stay in woods" as I have seen CAS spot and destroy my units in woods cover.

I also have heard "stay close to buildings". I thought I was keeping vehicles close, but maybe that means "so close that part of the unit appears inside the building"??

BlackMoria..?

[BlackMoria]

I have played this scenario three times now from start to finish and solely based on those three play throughs, I have parked numerous vehicles on the dam bridge and have yet to have any air power attack them. I usually get the vehicles beside the dam 'building' sides and keep the middle of the road clear.

I have had vehicles in the LZ 1 trees (beside the LZ) and in trees at the Hassan compound. They usually aren't spotted but I have been lucky in the few times that they were spotted, the rocket attacks are inaccurate, as well as the bombs from the Syrian jets. I don't know what goes on in the calculations made by the game engine but it seems being in trees helps somewhat - at least that is my perception.

At LZ 2, putting vehicles in the narrow lanes in the building complex across the road from the initial buildings the LZ 2 forces initially assault into seems to help as well. I have had the vehicles in that area spotted only once and rocket attacked and the buildings soaked up all the rockets, preventing the vehicles from being hit.

What seems to be key is once you hear the helo blades sound effect or the jet engine noise is to STOP moving forces around and sit quietly until the air assets stop buzzing around. My experience is they really key on 'movement' or units 'firing', most likely getting spotting bonuses for your forces moving or firing while they are overhead.

I have done the 'keep the head down and don't move' in all three play throughs and I have had the Syrian helos buzz around about three or four passes and then leave without them firing a shot because they couldn't spot any of my forces.

If you do have forces in the open when the hostile air arrives, keep them moving - quickly. While this seems to contradict what I said above, chances are that vehicles would be spotted in the open anyhow and your forces take less direct hits by rocket, missiles or bombs due to them getting moving bonuses against weapon systems instead of getting no bonuses at all by being static.

So far, the only vehicles I have lost were empty Humvees where I parked them in the open in dead ground to dismount the TOW launchers or the Mk19 - vehicles sitting static in the open.

That said, I could be the luckiest SOB around since in three play throughs, the only vehicles I lost were empty, parked in the open Humvees - so either I am extremely lucky or there is some truth to the tactics I outlined above.

[Erwin]

"What seems to be key is once you hear the helo blades sound effect or the jet engine noise is to STOP moving forces around and sit quietly until the air assets stop buzzing around."

That makes sense when in cover or in alleyways. I thought I was keeping "quiet". But, then again the CAS tends to stick around for several minutes, and once again I may be getting too impatient to just sit there for 5-10 minutes until the air goes away when I am worried about time, or there are easy targets in view.

I will try to be more patient.