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Who wouldn't want to simulate the tag team tactics of certain T34 commanders at Kursk? To be able to box-in their German counterparts before landing the coup de grace? Unleash the dogs of war.

Dogs indeed. IIRC the Soviet tankers called the team tactic "hunting with borzoi," after the Russian dog breed. Distract the German tank from one vector while stalking it from the other.

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Tankriders look great. Full ppsh toting squads will be a lot of fun to watch in 1-to-1.

Haven't had time to read through this whole thing yet so maybe this has been covered---any chance we'll see clickeable waypoints in Bagration? Clickeable as in you can select them by clicking on the lines themselves--without having to select the unit first. Hopefully this would also come with the option to always show all waypoint lines regardless of whether a unit is selected, since having to select a unit to show the other waypoint lines would kinda defeat the purpose. Steve had previously said it was a possibility--so maybe for this Ostfront release :)?

I think this feature would have a great deal of positive impact on the playability of CMx2, even if it doesn't seem like something earth shattering.

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I'm really excited to hear that another add on pack will be available for Normandy. I'm personally wishing for AT bunkers so missions can be made for the beaches. I'm not sure what historically accurate user made maps exist for this game right now except that everything else on the market is just a copy of Saving Private Ryan. It would be a nice refresher to play so far one of the most realistic strategy games with accurate invasion maps. Does anyone else feel the same way despite the hype for the Russian front?

With the 3.0 version coming and bigger maps there is really going to be a need for trigger activated movement for single player or else it'll just be scattered static defenses with a hit or miss on ai attacks. Multiplayer either way will be awesome for those maps. The ability for the ai to move in hunt mode would also be very beneficial with that much unknown territory or even with smaller maps to prevent ridiculous suicide charges at times.

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And if the gun crew is not suppressed your tank is probably going to be smoking wreckage before it gets to the gun. Unless your armor is more or less immune to piece in question anyway.

if you read the accounts it is clear that this was usually, but not always, done when attacking the AT guns from the flank or from a blind spot, forcing the the guns to pivot to engage the fast moving vehicles, which would hardly be easy.

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It is 'slightly' off topic but perhaps somebody can help me with the following Eastern front picture. It is a picture of two German soldiers, dressed in winter uniform and lying next to a road. They are seen on the back and according to the comment it is the Eastern front in 1944/1945 and most important, it is FATHER and SON. I've been thinking about this picture for years. Perhaps somebody knows where to find it or is willing to post it here. It is very well possible the comment is just for propaganda purpose, but I would like to see this picture again.

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And if the gun crew is not suppressed your tank is probably going to be smoking wreckage before it gets to the gun. Unless your armor is more or less immune to piece in question anyway.

There is another problem too. Driving over something like a gun could do serious damage to your tracks. Granted, damage to the tracks of one tank is preferable to having several shot up, but it is something that the troops had to consider and the player should have to too.

Michael

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I think the subject of tanks crushing AT guns (which only have to have their trail legs or barrel damaged to KO them) also brings up another omission, the physical impact a tank has, often on poorly trained infantry. It's not for nothing infantry are called 'crunchies', by some tankers, the fear of being crushed is part of the impact of a tank, put a conscript infantry platoon, in the open and charge them with a company of tanks, do any run or suffer a morale penalty automatically?

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True, and if they retired it could hit morale hard, especially German infantry and their uber tanks. Morale, paradoxically, is probably best represented by games focusing on higher formations as it can be approximated into a binary, +1/-1 morale factor. At CM's scale it seems to be a firepower/CC algorithm, lest it became hostage to too many arbitrary or subjective factors. Yet, one could argue these factors are often the essential factors that determine success or failure at CM's level of simulation.

I do seem to remember more hands going up, in CM1, when infantry faced AFV attacks. especially from the flank, but that might just be my memory.

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The Tiger Kompanie was ordered to throw out the enemy who had penetrated into a woods, and then continue to advance. About 1215 hours, together with an Infanterie Battalion, the Tiger Kompanie started to attack. The thick forest caused extremely poor visibility (50 meters), and a narrow trail forced the Tiger Kompanie to advance in a single file. The Russian infantry fled their positions as soon as the Tigers appeared. The anti-tank guns, which were pulled forward into position by the opponent withing three-quarters of an hour after entering the woods, were quickly destroyed in spite of the difficulty in seeing the targets. Some of the anti-tank guns were destroyed by hits and some were rolled over.

- Panzertruppen 2

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The Tiger Kompanie was ordered to throw out the enemy who had penetrated into a woods, and then continue to advance. About 1215 hours, together with an Infanterie Battalion, the Tiger Kompanie started to attack. The thick forest caused extremely poor visibility (50 meters), and a narrow trail forced the Tiger Kompanie to advance in a single file. The Russian infantry fled their positions as soon as the Tigers appeared. The anti-tank guns, which were pulled forward into position by the opponent within three-quarters of an hour after entering the woods, were quickly destroyed in spite of the difficulty in seeing the targets. Some of the anti-tank guns were destroyed by hits and some were rolled over.

- Panzertruppen 2

Were the guns still manned and being fought at the time they were rolled over, or had the infantry already fled, and the Tigers just rolling around policing up the battlefield?

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The report doesn't say.

...

We had already burst into the artillery positions. My vehicle was rising and falling for the fifth time -- it meant that our Yakov Petrovich was crushing the fifth enemy gun beneath our tracks. Pyataev had crushed no fewer -- Ivan always acted boldly, to the point of recklessness in attacks. Of course, we had been lucky that the enemy had not a single tank or assault gun in Stulno. There had been no faustniki either.

-- Vasiliy Krysov, Panzer Destroyer

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I agree, which kinda makes the requests for tank crushing in CM moot: in CM terms, these guns were all already destroyed before the tanks rolled over them.

But it's not moot because enemy dismounts could include far more than AT guns and crew. Enemy infantry who have gone to ground could still be hiding in their holes with AT rifles and Molotov cocktails, waiting to emerge after the tanks roll past. If the game automatically killed (or had a high chance of killing) any infantry in the same AS as a moving tank, then the tanks would have an effective counter **if** they survive to get this close and overrun the infantry.

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People are mentioning Kursk, Stalingrad, and 1942 in connection with the coming game. Remember, the title covers Bagration to Berlin. A very different Russian army and very different tactical situation than the wide open steppes of 42-43. Russians had something like a 10-1 superiority in armor and a lot of what they fielded could pierce a Panther frontally at combat range. The list of armor types the Germans didn't have in the theater summer '44 is quite alarming. Nashorn seems to have done much of the heavy lifting in this timeframe. Bagration is not 'generic' Eastern front. :D

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I agree, which kinda makes the requests for tank crushing in CM moot: in CM terms, these guns were all already destroyed before the tanks rolled over them.

Yes, but it appears that the reason the guns were "destroyed" in CM terms was fear of imminent crushing.

Not that I am particularly worried about it not being possible in CM. But it did happen, and not everything tanks ran over were abandoned.

Yakov Petrovich managed to accelerate the vehicle so well that it almost flew over the ditch and, landing with a hard jolt, we right off the bat struck an armored personnel carrier with the left edge of the front armor, sending it into the opposite ditch upside down. Pivoting, we started down the enemy column like a battering ram, smashing and overturning vehicles and equipment with our momentum, armor and mass. Seeing my tank destroyer coming, some of the drivers of the forward vehicles panicked and tried to turn away; others were turning around or unsuccessfully trying to overcome the roadside ditches to hide in the woods. The rest, having abandoned their vehicles, fled into the forest. However, the vehicles in the rear, unaware of what was happening in front of them, continued to roll forward, and vehicles began to collide. Finally, all movement stopped and complete chaos and panic engulfed the road. Even so, Yakov Petrovich kept shoving vehicles over and knocking them into the roadside ditches. The machine gunners fired long bursts from the forest at the remaining fascists, preventing them from slipping away into the woods. Machine gun bursts also caught those who were climbing out of crumpled vehicles.

For a second I opened the hatch cover to see how Revutsky's vehicle was doing. All I could see was the rear of his tank destoyer, its exhaust pipes belching smoke. Having smashed into a truck towing a gun with one track, his self-propelled gun was continuing to move towards the next victim, briefly dragging the half-smashed truck with it.

The nose of my vehicle rose again before abruptly dropping back onto the road, lifting open the hatch cover before slamming it closed again -- one more enemy vehicle was smashed.

-- Panzer Destroyer

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