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Counterattack at Son Bailey Bridge Problem?


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I just started a new game as the American player in 2.12 and I drove a jeep across the Bailey Bridge (canal bridge) and I drove a jeep across both Dommel River bridges. I then started a brand new game as the German and I drove a tank across the diagonal stone bridge across the creek. Every bridge seems to be working, although the diagonal bridge is a little screwy when the vehicles cross it.

Ah, I see that you said tanks can't cross the bridge. I don't know why a tank wouldn't cross if a jeep can. I might add a tank to the American starting forces and see if it will cross. There is no reason a tank shouldn't cross the bridge.

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  • 11 months later...

Apologies for necro-bumping.

I did a search to see if this issue was known. It's a bit frustrating to discover it has been for nearly a year and NOTHING was done about it. If it's a bug or flawed map design then it hasn't been fixed.

Of course, I didn't know about it until I was nearly 40 minutes into the scenario. Needless to say, it was irritating to discover that the famous Son Bailey bridge that took-up an overlong 10 minutes in a "Bridge Too Far" to be built doesn't support armor! It appears that despite Elliot Gould's best efforts XXX Corps' tanks ain't getting to Grave.

In terms of gameplay, this breaks the scenario and makes it unplayable. The Brit tanks are stuck on one side of the canal and the Germans on the other. It's absurd because there are victory locations on both sides!

The problem is that CMBN's "canal" bridges don't support armor. I don't know if once upon time they did prior to some patch or upgrade, but they certainly don't now. The description in the scenario editor is vague. The canal bridge is not described with "W" for "wide" which according to the 3.0 manual is the only type of bridge that can support all vehicles (ie tanks). It's just "canal bridge" with no descriptor. Are wooden canal bridges supposed to support armor?

Anyway, aesthetics be damned! I used the scenario editor to transform that admittedly neat looking canal bridge into a plain, ordinary, mundane stone bridge with a big old "W" next to its name! It took me a minute. I have to restart the scenario, but it, at least, now has a working bridge!

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I added a Sherman to the US forces and it refused to cross the canal bridge. I'll report that as a bug. Thanks.

I thought the canal bridge was simply rated as being too light to support a tank.

Good plan Myles. See this is how it starts, you open the editor and change a bridge. Next game you open to swap some vehicles or adjust a setup. Next thing you know you alter an AI plan and all of a sudden you find yourself designing. bwahahaha Pinky what will we do tomorrow? :D

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I thought the canal bridge was simply rated as being too light to support a tank.

Good plan Myles. See this is how it starts, you open the editor and change a bridge. Next game you open to swap some vehicles or adjust a setup. Next thing you know you alter an AI plan and all of a sudden you find yourself designing. bwahahaha Pinky what will we do tomorrow? :D

Nobody is more aggravated about this than I am. There were so many bridge problems with that module that they continued beyond the release of the game. The bridges themselves have no ratings shown on them in the editor and nobody who tested the scenario (at least three or four different people) made any indication that the bridge was uncrossable by armor.

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Nobody is more aggravated about this than I am. There were so many bridge problems with that module that they continued beyond the release of the game. The bridges themselves have no ratings shown on them in the editor and nobody who tested the scenario (at least three or four different people) made any indication that the bridge was uncrossable by armor.

The only reason I came to that conclusion on this bridge was based on another scenario I was testing for someone a couple months ago who brought it to my attention in their map design.

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The only reason I came to that conclusion on this bridge was based on another scenario I was testing for someone a couple months ago who brought it to my attention in their map design.

The reality is that it doesn't make any sense to have a canal bridge that is uncrossable by armor. After all, that was the entire point of the Market Garden campaign wasn't it? If capturing canal bridges didn't allow British armor to cross the canals then what was the point of the campaign? There was no reason to believe that a canal bridge was uncrossable by armor in the first place, the editor didn't say one way or another, and for whatever reason the bridge was apparently coded as a light bridge. The reasons for that decision are unfathomable to me, but that's the way it currently is and there isn't squat that I can do about it.

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  • 2 months later...

Joy, just invested god knows how many hours on this scenario and we are 21 mins in and just talking to my oppo he said he could not plot move for Panther on the bridge. Hmmm I thought the Jeeps I have are OK.

Now I see this is broken! It was shaping up to be a great game but this seems to place it in the bin! What a waste. I guess I can not edit game in progress to fix the bridge?

Shocking and a real shame. I will let my oppo know and see if he feels he can win without getting his tanks across. Also seriously knackers my cunning plans!!

Can't believe the play testers did not try and get tanks across the bridge!!

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OK we are going to play on and see how it works out. It really puts the Kybosh on what I had planned and I am not sure what the German VP's are and how important it is for them to cross as we are playing double blind. My oppo is OK to continue so lets see what happens.

 

Real pity that Bridges are such a PITA in the CM series, I do understand how hard it is to code but graphically watching the Panthers go over the bridges they can cross is not what I would call very smooth, with some very odd graphic moments.

 

I wish I had understood what I had seen written about this game before we started so I could have made an edit. I had not really understood what the person was saying... Dohh!!

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Having run a little test on this scenario I have to agree with the above. It would have been nice to have some kind of guidance as to what kind of vehicles could cross which kind of bridges in the briefing. It is bad enough having a "Bailey Bridge" that looks like a traditional Dutch canal bridge, it is more annoying to find out that you have no way of knowing what weight of AFV it can carry. Hopefully these sort of things can be fixed in the future, as and when different kinds of bridges become available to the scenario designers.

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It's a shame more people keep discovering that this scenario is broken the hard-way: by getting involved playing it only to discover deep in the game that it is broken due to it having the wrong bridge type.  And make no mistake from how the scenario is set-up to its actual history (it's supposed to represent the bridge that supported the armor of an entire corps!) to its author's comments here: that bridge is supposed to support armor!   It was NOT intended to be limited to jeeps and foot traffic as it is currently.

 

This an easily fixed scenario: a couple of minutes work with the scenario editor to switch-out that unsuitable bridge.  Upon this issue being discovered (and it's been known for over a year now), a revised version with the map edit should have been immediately uploaded to the Repository and/or CMMODs with a warning that the original scenario is broken and should be replaced with the revised one.  Granted that wouldn't have prevented everyone from playing the broken version, but it still would have been a more helpful option than just doing "squat" about it.

 

I've made an edited version.  It's not pretty, but it does give the player a fully functioning bridge.  I probably should have uploaded it or offered to make it available back when it became clear no one else was going to do "squat" about it, but I didn't.

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I'm always reluctant to have a go at BFC, cuz I think by and large they do a great job. But having gone to the trouble of including windmills, dutch style buildings, street signs etc in MG, they could have provided "Bailey" and pontoon bridges as well. Oh well, it gives me chance to test out my map editing skills.

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It's a shame more people keep discovering that this scenario is broken the hard-way: by getting involved playing it only to discover deep in the game that it is broken due to it having the wrong bridge type.  And make no mistake from how the scenario is set-up to its actual history (it's supposed to represent the bridge that supported the armor of an entire corps!) to its author's comments here: that bridge is supposed to support armor!   It was NOT intended to be limited to jeeps and foot traffic as it is currently.

 

This an easily fixed scenario: a couple of minutes work with the scenario editor to switch-out that unsuitable bridge.  Upon this issue being discovered (and it's been known for over a year now), a revised version with the map edit should have been immediately uploaded to the Repository and/or CMMODs with a warning that the original scenario is broken and should be replaced with the revised one.  Granted that wouldn't have prevented everyone from playing the broken version, but it still would have been a more helpful option than just doing "squat" about it.

 

I've made an edited version.  It's not pretty, but it does give the player a fully functioning bridge.  I probably should have uploaded it or offered to make it available back when it became clear no one else was going to do "squat" about it, but I didn't.

I'm going to assume that this is primarily directed at me so in an attempt to prevent something from getting out of control here let me respond.  It is my decision and my decision alone as to whether or not a modified scenario gets posted on the repository.  BFC has nothing to do with that decision and they have never asked me to put something on the repository.  I have chosen not to put something on the repository for this reason: I think that either the bridge weight limit should be increased or I should be allowed to alter the bridge type and these modifications should be included in a patch.  The reason for this is that there are many players who don't use or look in the repository and I feel that everyone who has the module should have the benefit of a 'fixed' scenario.  I have asked for both of these options to be considered and I have never received a response.  I only recall BFC asking scenario designers if they wanted to include updated scenarios for a patch a single time and I don't think anyone responded (it was for an earlier game release) and they have never repeated such a request to my knowledge.  At this point in time it appears that an 'official' decision of some type has been made that scenario adjustments or tweaks are not to be included in patches.  I'm sure there is a reason for this policy, but I am unaware of what the reason is.  If I put something on the repository then BFC can just wash their hands of the issue and assume that it has been resolved.  If someone wants to put something on the repository on their own then I won't object so you have my blessings if you want to put in a different bridge. 

Edited by ASL Veteran
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Hi Myles,

 

The way the business model works for CM and the other games (from what I understand, and happy to be corrected) is that any scenario's provided with the base game are pretty much designed by volunteers and playtested as best as possible before release. The play testing of a scenario is not ensured and is not part of the release process, so you don't necessarily get it fully played before the game or module is released. So I guess this just got missed or the players did not get to stage to push vehicles across the bridge.

 

ASL Vet I think your ideas are good and I guess BFC have other things they want to focus on and it is a pity they have not responded.

 

I had not thought through the patch process but I guess they now do the patch with everything in it so it would be possible to get scenarios updated and released with a patch. Another great idea.

 

However, again I guess too much trouble for BFC so not going to happen.

 

I am not really aufait with the editor but if someone did modify it and posted to the repository and placed a link in this thread then it might be good for some users, I guess maybe not all as you tend to only search things out when you spot an issue and by then it is too late.

 

I will post a review of the scenario as is once we have reached a point where it has ended. It could still play well and be fun, just certain tactics I had planned I can not put into effect, but likewise the German player is also affected.

 

As I said above it really is giving me a great challenge and I am hoping I can keep my defense up as more xx's get across the river bridge. (Not Canal Bridge).

 

ASL Vet I am really enjoying the design so far and thank you for the work it took you to create it, more comments to follow when we finish.

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I've been playing this with Holien and we thought we would press on regardless.

 

Ha! Now this happens:

 

CM%20Normandy%201.jpg

 

 

The fourth Panther has sunk into the bridge and will no longer respond to move commands.

 

CM%20Normandy%202.jpg

 

 

It appears to have ignored the presence of bridge and gone down the bank.

 

 

Normally it would be possible to carry out the following logical absurdity, by driving through it with other tanks, like so (pictures from another bridge)

 

CM%20Normandy%203.jpg

 

 

CM%20Normandy%204.jpg

 

 

CM%20Normandy%205.jpg

 

 

But not in this case. The stuck tank won't move and other vehicles will not move past it. Scratch one scenario.

 

 

The inescapable conclusion is that 'bridges' in CM are still massively flakey.

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

******** Spoilers within *******

 

Well we have finally finished this and Oppo requested CF at around 56 Min left mark so we have played well over 1 hour of the game.

 

I enjopyed the challenge and ultimately I do not think the Bridge Issue affected the game for me, and actually I do not think it really affects it for the Germans.

 

I really liked how ASL Vet created the opposing VP conditions and the Germans have different condditions than the Americans. So I think even with the bridge not allowing tanks across it does make for interesting game for both sides.

 

Depending on how the Americans place their AT Guns and the speed of the German advance it could be better for the Germans that the Allies can not cross the river...

 

So some key observations...

 

1. The times noted for the Allied reinforcements are wrong by an hour. I do not know if that was deliberate or a mix up between 8 and 9? No real problem as often as a commander you do not know really when or if stuff will turn up. I was certainly watching the clock and preying for a slow German adavnce as I got my 1st lot of tanks before he had managed to escape my kill zone...

 

2. There are several clear bottlenecks for the Germans and the Allied player has to really use those to slow down the advance.

 

3. I was surprised and caught off guard and that really made the experience more fun. Because the map is so big as the Allied player you do not really know how close the Germans are to your setup. As I don't ever take designers at their word or breifing I assume the worse and scout out...

So what I did at beggining is load up a couple of jeeps and head for the two bridges that the Germans can use (1 road and 1 foot bridge).. I reached the road Bridge and no Germans were there so pushed them on across the fields to observe quietly the main road. They gave me fantastic info on what was heading my way. 14 S***dig Pathers!! That scared the hell out of me as I had 4 AT Guns and some Zookas so I knew I was in for tough time.

 

The Other Jeep took far edge apporach to foot bridge and a Zook recon team crossed the foot bridge. No Germans to be seen apart from vehicle contacts heading down road, so they crossed the bridge to see if they could take a tank out...

 

So on the basius of that info I made wrong assumption that all German forces where using main bridge and moved up my units to a more forward defence line (German Farm House and other buildings).

 

I was somewhat taken aback when my forces bumped into advance German Inf which had magically got across the river. This resulted in some of the best action of the game with fire fights in the mist. But I had been able to take key buildings and Bocage hedge line. If I had not taken this with 3 platoons (I jeeped one platoon in) I would have been steam rolled. These forward positions are essential to the Allied player and the large map and uncertain start positions created some great game play.

 

This game play continued as my Oppo had not spotted me slipping the Zook team past and they managed to cause a bit of trouble before being taken out.

 

Once I looked at German set up my Zook team were very lucky / unlucky to have arrived at the foot bridge after the mass of Germans had already crossed and took a different route X Country so we both missed seeing one another. Those sort of thinmgs rarely happen in CM and really added to the FOG of war and enjoyment of the scenario.

 

Will post some more comments later as need to log off for she who must be obeyed....

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I just started this and came here for a whole other reason - I'm playing Germans and the men seem to have two different types of uniforms in the same squad.

 

Some have camo and some olive drab.

 

Don't know how to take a screenshot. but have saved game.

 

I have CMBN with vech pack Ver 3.11

Edited by Daroc
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I just started this and came here for a whole other reason - I'm playing Germans and the men seem to have two different types of uniforms in the same squad.

 

Some have camo and some olive drab.

 

Don't know how to take a screenshot. but have saved game.

 

I have CMBN with vech pack Ver 3.11

 

"Mixed camo" is an option for some units in the scenario editor.  It's historical.

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