Let's talk about the Road to Nijmegen

[Holien]

Just finished the campaign, with a Major Victory:

Especially with "Turning back the Tide", I had to restart the battle since I originally tried to defend the initial attack too far forward and got slaughtered. But if you initially hold further back, the arrival of the 8x 105mm SPA battery will take care of this battle.

Just one thing: In the briefing for "Turning back the Tide" it is mentioned that the Germans won't get points for the Allied terrain objectives, but this is not true in the game, i.e. the Germans are awarded points for the "Roadblock" and "Southern Mook" objectives. Is this intentional? If so, maybe the wording in the briefing should be changed to let the player know.

But overall, great work .

Interesting I had good results with a forward defence on this and effectively held off the attack with the 1st platoon and 2nd platoon. Although at one stage I was very stretched.

There are certain key features on that map that if you get to 1st you can easily hold of the AI attack.

I also managed to destroy a couple of the Panthers with Zooka's which was very nice...

Excellent scenario and despite the win it really did stretch me. Also, I never touched the arty at the end (Mook Battery or 105's) and the German morale collapsed and game ended early.

Just about to start Hunner Park...

[Holien]

End of Campaign by msj_1, on Flickr

Spoilers...

So just finished the last scenario which was a nail bitter right to last minute when I finally nailed the last Stug and got men into the castle.

Also my men found all the mines and was I cursing the designer as my men stood on each and every one of them.

Still had plenty of arty left and the key was taking out the Tiger and Stugs...

Great campaign and really enjoyed it. Did not have to do any re-start so not too bad a result.

Thanks (Just hoping you are at work on Red Thunder?)

[rocketman]

This is such a great campaign. Currently playing the butt kicking "Bloody Aalst" scanario. I did a search in this thread on it and someone mentioned blowing stuff up with engineers. I have none which makes things very hard. Is this due to loosing units i previous missions?

[TheBog11]

I'm having a bit of trouble on the fourth mission (The Check At Hoak)

I've been pounding one of the 88s for about 5 turns now with 4 Shermans (one of which is a Firefly). The gun is suppressed, but somehow the crew is not abandoning it. I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do. I only have ammo for 2 of my 3 inch mortars (about 15 shells each). No 25-lber ammo left. I doubt my air support will be able to spot the gun.

I can hear another 88 firing, and have already taken losses from it, so I'd like to not blow all my assets on this one gun.

I lost the last mission (mission 3), so I'd really like to avoid losing this one and being given the baby missions.

[Erwin]

I think others have noticed that HE is less effective than one would expect vs guns etc. The targets should at least be suppressed enuff that you can move forwards. But, if you're playing WEGO the guns often can recover within a few seconds and start firing at you accurately. I forget what I did to win this mission. Smoke?

[womble]

One thing that suppression does is pin in place. If you give them a break for a second, drop back out of LOF with your targets, I mean Shermans, and let the gun crew recover their feet, they might well feel they can safely quit their posts. Especially if you then briefly bounce them with a mortar to remind them they should be running along. I discovered that there is such a thing as overkill: if you don't give them chance to run away, you have to kill them all in place, and microterrain can make that tricky. Just something to try.

[Erwin]

That's interesting info. Thanks...

[womble]

I'm having a bit of trouble on the fourth mission (The Check At Hoak)

I've been pounding one of the 88s for about 5 turns now with 4 Shermans (one of which is a Firefly). The gun is suppressed, but somehow the crew is not abandoning it. I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do. I only have ammo for 2 of my 3 inch mortars (about 15 shells each). No 25-lber ammo left. I doubt my air support will be able to spot the gun.

I can hear another 88 firing, and have already taken losses from it, so I'd like to not blow all my assets on this one gun.

I lost the last mission (mission 3), so I'd really like to avoid losing this one and being given the baby missions.

Winning the previous scenario makes The Check at Hook easier... you get (10 minutes) longer, the defenders aren't deeply dug in (well, the briefing for the "slow breakout" version says the defenders have had time to dig in) and you get some pre-battle intel, which in my case identified a number of good ATG/autocannon spots to plaster. Without those clues, you're going to need to get a lot of eyes as far forward across as broad a frontage as possible to spot the 88s at the long ranges they're (quite sensibly) deployed from your probable approach routes.

I can't offer any advice beyond "giving them a chance to run" for dealing with the guns; both the ones I've uncovered so far went down to less than 5 75mm-minutes of direct bombardment. They're tough mothers though; one sustained what looked like 3 direct hits (2 for sure after it was properly spotted) before becoming "Knocked Out". I only had 2 Shermans firing at once though, and the second 88 might have had its crew driven off/chopped into dogmeat by the Typhoon strafing I landed on the "?" icon. First really useful thing air has managed to do for me, there.

[rocketman]

Thank you Paper Tiger for a great and challenging campaign. Awesome maps and tough fighting all the way. The good thing about RT not being released yet is that I found time to finish the campaign. Highly recommended

[TheBlackHand]

I've been playing this one and I just completed the "For Those About to Die" battle. Minor defeat . . . and that was after the second time trying it. Seems like an impossible task. Oh, maybe I could get it right the third time, but where's the fun in that? The first time I tried it I got cut to ribbons in short order.

Seems designed to fail. Attacking a numerically superior foe with no support and having to move alllllllllll the way across the map with little time to do so.

Very frustrating.

Same went for that breakout scenario the Irish tanks (Neerpelt Something?). I had to restart that one three or four times until I finally got it right.

I don't expect to win every time easily . . . but it's kind of a drag to be set with something that just seems as though it requires the skill of Patton and a lot of luck. I'm hardly a newbie either.

Makes me very hesitant to even bother with the campaigns that come with the game.

Seems like every version has had a couple of battles that are practically impossible.

Been much happier with the user created stuff.

[Lanzfeld]

You mean it made you feel frustrated and it turned your gut and made you mad at your upper command for not predicting the enemy forces correctly?

Yeah this should be an easy enjoyable run like it was in real life..........wait a minute!

[Lethaface]

I've been playing this one and I just completed the "For Those About to Die" battle. Minor defeat . . . and that was after the second time trying it. Seems like an impossible task. Oh, maybe I could get it right the third time, but where's the fun in that? The first time I tried it I got cut to ribbons in short order.

Seems designed to fail. Attacking a numerically superior foe with no support and having to move alllllllllll the way across the map with little time to do so.

Very frustrating.

Same went for that breakout scenario the Irish tanks (Neerpelt Something?). I had to restart that one three or four times until I finally got it right.

I don't expect to win every time easily . . . but it's kind of a drag to be set with something that just seems as though it requires the skill of Patton and a lot of luck. I'm hardly a newbie either.

Makes me very hesitant to even bother with the campaigns that come with the game.

Seems like every version has had a couple of battles that are practically impossible.

Been much happier with the user created stuff.

Found time to play this campaign last weeks. Am now starting Aalst, with most of my IG forces still battle worthy. Seems I got a LOAD of artillery so not sure why others had so much problems in this scenario ;-). IIRC I won all mission with a Total Victory, apart from Night Fight and the one after that: Minor/Tactical Victories. It wasn't easy but apart from some reloads due to goofed up orders/sloppiness (by myself) I didn't find it too hard to deal with. Try blue and grey campaign first mission, now that's impossible!

The thing that people should realize is that (many) CMx2 campaigns are different to most other games in that LOSING MISSIONS IS NOT A NO GO, YOU CAN STILL GO ON

[Erik Springelkamp]

I am mostly a recreational gamer, not a competitive one. I play with a 'let's see what happens if I do this...', which doesn't always lead to a happy ending.

Still, it can be a lot of fun.

So I complained a few years ago about the fact that the very good scenario's of the campaigns can only be enjoyed in the competitive mode, not in the recreational mode.

The very satisfactory response was that I was offered the separate scenarios of the Dutch Campaign of NATO CMSF, so I could happily lose a scenario and get on with the next one in full strength.

Meanwhile all of the campaigns of CMSF have been offered as collections of scenarios in the Repository, so this offers the best of all worlds.

Maybe the WWII campaigns should also be offered in split form, say half a year after their release?

I repeat the link to the video of comedian Dara O'Brien that inspired me to complain and that brought this wonderful result:

[Lahm]

I've been playing this one and I just completed the "For Those About to Die" battle. Minor defeat . . . and that was after the second time trying it. Seems like an impossible task. Oh, maybe I could get it right the third time, but where's the fun in that? The first time I tried it I got cut to ribbons in short order.

Seems designed to fail. Attacking a numerically superior foe with no support and having to move alllllllllll the way across the map with little time to do so.

If your intent is to take all the objectives, yes i think Paper Tiger made this goal very diffcult to achieve.. But if you read the briefing carefully it gives you some hints on what you should do..

First, look at the points allocated for each objective :

- Windmill (50vps)

- Hotel (150vps)

- Plasmolen West (100vps)

- Plasmolen East (50vps)

The hotel gives you as much points as the two plasmolen objs and the windmill insures you a victory (200vps > 150vps)

Then look at the bonus points. You get 100vps for preserving your force but only 50vps for destroying ennemy units.. Plus the briefing tells you that it is more important to preserve your men because you'll need them later.

So just go for the first two objectives and keep your casualties low, that's what I did. Got a victory on the first try.

[Lethaface]

IIRC The road to Nijmegen has a built-in mechanism that gives players after losing 2 consecutive missions. Specially for the people that want to enjoy all it's missions which they couldn't manage otherwise. So, losing doesn't mean the end of the campaign AND you will be rebuffed when you lose a lot. Best of both worlds I guess

[Skwabie]

Maybe the WWII campaigns should also be offered in split form

Erik, check Mad Mike's tool which does exactly that

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=113797

[Lethaface]

If your intent is to take all the objectives, yes i think Paper Tiger made this goal very diffcult to achieve.. But if you read the briefing carefully it gives you some hints on what you should do..

First, look at the points allocated for each objective :

- Windmill (50vps)

- Hotel (150vps)

- Plasmolen West (100vps)

- Plasmolen East (50vps)

The hotel gives you as much points as the two plasmolen objs and the windmill insures you a victory (200vps > 150vps)

Then look at the bonus points. You get 100vps for preserving your force but only 50vps for destroying ennemy units.. Plus the briefing tells you that it is more important to preserve your men because you'll need them later.

So just go for the first two objectives and keep your casualties low, that's what I did. Got a victory on the first try.

Is that the Red Sun Rising scenario? I managed a tactical victory holding on to the hotel and retaking the buildings near to it on the Island after the blunt of the attack was over, although on 2nd try. Was a tough fight and it got me back on my feet regarding ambushing, since playing as RED in CMSF. If you try to defend this in a symmetric warfare style you will be utterly annihilated. That's about a battalion worth of infantry (?) with tank support assaulting 1 reinforced US Airborne platoon. Those are tough troopers but even against the AI it is too much. I learned that after failing to realize what it was the briefing told me the first few minutes of my first try. Before the enemy attack basically got started I lost most of my platoon, positioned in a way to get fire superiority against attacking enemy forces. I restarted the mission from scratch and took a different approach.

Place your troops in smart positions away from general view with short covered arcs. For example first floor of the hotel buildings with covered arcs until the border of the compound or a little further. Re-position troops when local fire superiority is needed. Hide your bazooka team somewhere from where it can relocate without getting shot up directly. Sacrifice live in order to save more lives. Fight!! victory at all costs

[Lethaface]

Just to add while I'm busy posting

I understand players not enjoying these type of mission if they haven't tried (or just don't enjoy) asymmetrical style warfare type of missions. Personally I had one of the best times in CM:BN playing this mission (Thanks, PaperTiger!).

While playing CM:SF for a while I started to prefer playing as RED. Nothing beats playing the underdog and snatching away victory from those in (hold of supreme) Power! While I enjoyed the power of Abrams, Marines, Javelins, Apache's and Warthogs, I thought it was refreshing to have just a rag tag bunch of soldiers armed with the odd RPG or PKM and hurt the superior BLUE forces in a cleverly spawned ambush. Employing those tactics in PBEM battles, fielding Syrian special forces with AT-14 Kornet-E's and RPG-29's was simply heart warming

The Red Sun Rising mission reminded me of the first time I took out a Challenger 2 from a few hundred meters with a shoulder mounted AT-13 positioned on a rear facing balcony of a ~10 story apartment tower

[Erik Springelkamp]

Erik, check Mad Mike's tool which does exactly that

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=113797

Great!

I am immediately going to split 'The road to Nijmegen'.

I played the first scenario, won, but because I was inpatient at the end I lost a lot of men. It happens often to me that after hours of play, I just think the game is done a little bit early :-)

I have restarted the scenario to do better this time, but actually I much rather spend the time playing the next part. I mean, it is supposed to be fun, not work.

[TheBlackHand]

You mean it made you feel frustrated and it turned your gut and made you mad at your upper command for not predicting the enemy forces correctly?

Yeah this should be an easy enjoyable run like it was in real life..........wait a minute![/quotel]

I know what you mean. I'm not looking for easy and enjoyable . . . but just because the Allies lost the real deal . . . does that mean I've been set up to lose the game unless I play better than Monty?

In that last battle I believe I took all but one VP, but at a fairly steep cost in manpower and I actually ran out of time. The battle ended on the dot, no extra time. Perhaps with five more minutes I'd have been able to move into the last VL, but . . . I guess it really wouldn't matter because by that time I'd have to few men left for the follow on battles, which I would certainly lose, barring some type of heroic display of tactical genius.

I believe the Allies were outnumbered by at least a dozen men in this scenario and while the Germans were said to be of lesser quality, they sure seemed to be fairly steadfast and quite deadly with their shooting. No, I was not rushing headlong across open spaces. Not without plenty of covering fire anyhow.

O'well. I am rather skeptical when I hear claims of "Total Victories" on battles such as these. Particularly on the first run. You folks should apply to be Generals in someones real army (or maybe you already are).

[TheBlackHand]

You mean it made you feel frustrated and it turned your gut and made you mad at your upper command for not predicting the enemy forces correctly?

Yeah this should be an easy enjoyable run like it was in real life..........wait a minute!

I know what you mean. I'm not looking for easy and enjoyable . . . but just because the Allies lost the real deal . . . does that mean I've been set up to lose the game unless I play better than Monty?

In that last battle I believe I took all but one VP, but at a fairly steep cost in manpower and I actually ran out of time. The battle ended on the dot, no extra time. Perhaps with five more minutes I'd have been able to move into the last VL, but . . . I guess it really wouldn't matter because by that time I'd have too few men left for the follow on battles, which I would certainly lose, barring some type of heroic display of tactical genius.

I believe the Allies were outnumbered by at least a dozen men in this scenario and while the Germans were said to be of lesser quality, they sure seemed to be fairly steadfast and quite deadly with their shooting. No, I was not rushing headlong across open spaces. Not without plenty of covering fire anyhow.

O'well. I am rather skeptical when I hear claims of "Total Victories" on battles such as these. Particularly on the first run. You folks should apply to be Generals in someones real army (or maybe you already are).

One thing about that Neerpelt Breakout scenario . . . yes, there was a lot of artillery but you're told (if I recall correctly) to use it sparingly since you'll need it later. OK. I used it to pretty good effect, but that was only after I found out the hard way where the enemy guns were. The Tiffies were nice, but the wait is sooooooooo . . . soooooo long per sortie that it's difficult to use them to any great effect. At least, it was for me. Also, just one FO to direct the aircraft? As in, one individual? The junionr team member cannot direct the AC so if the main man dies, you're done. (Found that out the hard way as well.) OK, whatever. If that's the way it was, that's the way it was. Makes them even less handy but . . . so be it. (I seriously wouldn't want to add anything that would make the game less correct and more gamey. That's not what I buy CM for. I'm not sure I buy it to get my head bashed in either, but . . . ).

[TheBog11]

I'm having a bit of trouble on the fourth mission (The Check At Hoak)

I've been pounding one of the 88s for about 5 turns now with 4 Shermans (one of which is a Firefly). The gun is suppressed, but somehow the crew is not abandoning it. I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do. I only have ammo for 2 of my 3 inch mortars (about 15 shells each). No 25-lber ammo left. I doubt my air support will be able to spot the gun.

I can hear another 88 firing, and have already taken losses from it, so I'd like to not blow all my assets on this one gun.

I lost the last mission (mission 3), so I'd really like to avoid losing this one and being given the baby missions.

Thought I would give an update. Needless to say, I did not win the Check at Hoak

Ended up taking Meatballs (and took heavy casualties in the woods - it was crawling with enemy). I pushed forward a tank platoon, and immediately lost two of them to the second 88 (which I was completely unable to spot). I ceasefired shortly after.

Surveying the battle afterwards, there was no way I could have won. There was a THIRD 88 near the exit, as well as a bunch of infantry, and a keyholed Jpz IV covering the road.

Maybe I'm just not cut out for these campaigns. I lost the last one I attempted (Conrath's Counterattack in CM:FI).

[Erwin]

FWIW I have won several of these by simply killing enuff Germans that they surrender and I get a Total Victory rather than actually making any exit victory conditions. I also found that the Brit 105mm and/or larger is more effective at killing German JPzIV's that trying to go tank vs tank. Hope that helps.

[womble]

Thought I would give an update. Needless to say, I did not win the Check at Hoak

Ended up taking Meatballs (and took heavy casualties in the woods - it was crawling with enemy). I pushed forward a tank platoon, and immediately lost two of them to the second 88 (which I was completely unable to spot). I ceasefired shortly after.

Surveying the battle afterwards, there was no way I could have won. There was a THIRD 88 near the exit, as well as a bunch of infantry, and a keyholed Jpz IV covering the road.

Maybe I'm just not cut out for these campaigns. I lost the last one I attempted (Conrath's Counterattack in CM:FI).

Dealing with those 88s without knowing where they are (as you do if you win the breakout) is going to be very tough. It's a bit perverse to make the scenario following a loss harder than it would have been following a victory, and then say "oh, but you have to lose two in a row to get bumped to the extended versions of the subsequent scenarios". If you lost one Combined Arms advance into unknown opposition, how likely is it that you'll win the next?

[Erwin]

The last scenario in Conrath's counterattack felt impossible unless you figured out the trick which IIRC was to go to the left flank rather than the obvious straight ahead.

What I like about Nijmegen campaign is that recon is rewarded. But, as with most CM2 scenarios/missions, I find that I spend 50%-75%+ of the time reconning to locate the enemy primary assets and the last 10-15 minutes killing or smoking em with appropriate weapons plus massacring the enemy troops - and often getting Total Victories because of enemy surrender. I agree that it seems often impossible to actually exit friendly units in the time allotted.