Patch released!

[Offshoot]

England got beaten by New Zealand at rugby today. Not wholly unexpected but you still feel like kicking the cat :mad:

Is it a black cat?

Great news about the patch. I've been holding off getting MG until it came out so time to pull the CC pin.

[Battlefront.com]

Well, that's one I missed. Or erased from memory. Personally, it sounds like a crock. Bugs fixed for free, they say. Modular code, they say. Can't change parameters, they say. Testing changes too complicated, they say.

Which is it?

Well, one can easily be confused when one is weighted down by a huge chip on his shoulder.

We're continually fixing bugs. We've fixed a LOT more than the two you keep going on and on and on and on and on about. So are we supposed to put those out for free as well? How about in 3 years from now?

The code is modular. We CAN backdate the fixes into the older game engine. Hell, we could backdate the changes to Shock Force, and that was released 6 years ago. It's all about how much time it will take. Modular code ≠ free programming.

The old system was we would stop supporting a game no matter how many pet peeve bugs were still in it. We did that for CMBO, CMBB, CMAK, Shock Force, and Afghanistan. We'd have done it for others if we had released others. So we aren't doing anything differently than we've done before. Except, of course, not dropping support and abandoning the game.

If you don't want to pay for the continued improvements, including brand new features, then you are effectively opting for the old way we did things. But if you want to engage in the new way, $10 gets you continued support and vastly more than a couple of bug fixes.

Ask yourself... why are you the ONLY person that's been asking about a Version 1 patch for CMBN? And if we built one especially for you, would you even use it? I already know the answers, but I'll let you puzzle them out for yourself.

Can't say I'm surprised, in the end. I certainly shan't be defending BFC's upgrade model in the future with as much conviction as historically.

Make a coherent argument why we should NOT spend our time improving the game for current customers to instead make a patch for a version of the game that apparently nobody is using. Then give me an example of any significant software product out there that has zero bugs in it before support is dropped. I'm curious to see what you can come up with.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

That didn't work. It only increased load times by 5X. Here's a screenshot from the stock scenario NEDforce, rated 'Large'. A vast improvement. Draw distance is acceptable, notice the grain textures

I don't know what is causing the draw distance in one scenario to be better than another for you. The improvements are dependent on a bunch of different factors inherent in the scenario itself, your video card, and the settings. Not dependent on when the scenario was made. Reason is that the improvements are based on the artwork and the artwork is in the game and not the scenario.

FPS should be better across the board, for all scenarios, but it's going to be far more noticeable in some than others. It also will be more noticeable at different times within a particular battle vs. another. Again, tons of variables at play when comparing one person's experience vs. another.

Steve

[MikeyD]

I tested using Fraps; my frames rates have only increased marginally.

I've seen frame rates go up a little but the vital part is when you're down in the trenches during gameplay and the frame rates don't drop the way they used to. Me and Normandy wooded maps with hedgerows have never been friends. I'm able to play them now without gnashing my teeth. Really, I suggest turning off FRAPS and not fixating on the numbers. If you can navigate the map smoothly and little lag then its fast enough.

[BletchleyGeek]

In my machine load time has gone up - perhaps a 50%, haven't measured with a stopwatch or anything - but my FPS shot through the roof (and I would say the the shadows and the lighting is considerably better).

[simmox]

so far so good

CMBN updated and saves converted without a hitch

FPS is good,but,its always been good on my PC?

draw distance appears to be improved,havent played any huge maps yet though

and load times seem quite good.

CMFI,is giving some inaccurate unit info text,however.(previous saved games)

but i could care less about that,the 2 games i have are almost complete anyway.

good job boys.thank you

[Ultradave]

Then give me an example of any significant software product out there that has zero bugs in it before support is dropped. I'm curious to see what you can come up with.

Steve

So true. Before I retired we had software that was written originally in the early 60s by my predecessors to do radiation analysis (dose rates through shielding). Originally ran on an IBM 360 mainframe. Then Apollo workstations (pseudo unix) then HP-UX, then SGI(Unix), then Windows server, and then added Linux to boot. Along the way the capabilities and lines of code expanded a couple orders of magnitude. We used to joke occasionally after fixing some bug - "Well that's the last bug" Of course we'd find something else the next week. Still being used and supported.

[Ultradave]

OK, got it, on Mac, need to hold Ctrl when clicking on app to override security settings.

There's also a preference you can check to allow any executables (System Preferences/Security and Privacy/ General ). I have that set that way to allow all. I know where my software comes from and since I use this computer also for work using software from national labs (not on the recognized developer list at Apple :-) ), I got tired of having to remembering to ctrl click. Personal preference as to how much security you want.

[Nidan1]

I have noticed a striking improvement in the way I can navigate around a large, tree-dense map. Especially CMBN in the Normandy sphere.

What I have not looked at yet, and I wonder if anyone else has, is any improvement in waypoint control when moving across bridges. I am going to test that out today on a scenario that gave me fits a while back.

[Battlefront.com]

In my machine load time has gone up - perhaps a 50%, haven't measured with a stopwatch or anything - but my FPS shot through the roof (and I would say the the shadows and the lighting is considerably better).

Yeah, part of the optimization was putting more load on "pre processing" end of things instead of "on the fly". Therefore, scenarios that have a ton of the stuff that's been newly optimized will load slower than before, but then run a ton faster when playing.

In a VERY rough way you can think of it this way... the more the increase in load time, the bigger the increase in performance. I don't know how directly proportional they are, but one is definitely an indicator of the other.

CMFI,is giving some inaccurate unit info text,however.(previous saved games)

Yup, that's just the sort of thing I'd expect from an older save game. For Italy saved games especially. But good to know they are still playing well otherwise.

So true. Before I retired we had software that was written originally in the early 60s by my predecessors to do radiation analysis (dose rates through shielding). Originally ran on an IBM 360 mainframe. Then Apollo workstations (pseudo unix) then HP-UX, then SGI(Unix), then Windows server, and then added Linux to boot. Along the way the capabilities and lines of code expanded a couple orders of magnitude. We used to joke occasionally after fixing some bug - "Well that's the last bug" Of course we'd find something else the next week. Still being used and supported.

The unfortunate reality of all software products. It never ceases to amaze me what some people DEMAND of a $55 short term entertainment product. And I don't even want to know what the programming budget was for that, nor what a bug could potential do in terms of putting people's lives at risk.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

I've seen frame rates go up a little but the vital part is when you're down in the trenches during gameplay and the frame rates don't drop the way they used to. Me and Normandy wooded maps with hedgerows have never been friends. I'm able to play them now without gnashing my teeth. Really, I suggest turning off FRAPS and not fixating on the numbers. If you can navigate the map smoothly and little lag then its fast enough.

ABSOLUTELY.

The optimizations can not make your system run faster than it's top end physical limitations. But what it can do is keep your system running much slower than it otherwise can. In game terms this probably means only marginal improvement over your best prior experiences, but major improvements over the situations that used to cause you to tear your hair out.

Steve

[altipueri]

Massive improvement for me playing on a laptop.

Even the RT Kool-Aid tastes OK.

[stikkypixie]

Yeah, part of the optimization was putting more load on "pre processing" end of things instead of "on the fly". Therefore, scenarios that have a ton of the stuff that's been newly optimized will load slower than before, but then run a ton faster when playing.

In a VERY rough way you can think of it this way... the more the increase in load time, the bigger the increase in performance. I don't know how directly proportional they are, but one is definitely an indicator of the other.

Yup, that's just the sort of thing I'd expect from an older save game. For Italy saved games especially. But good to know they are still playing well otherwise.

The unfortunate reality of all software products. It never ceases to amaze me what some people DEMAND of a $55 short term entertainment product. And I don't even want to know what the programming budget was for that, nor what a bug could potential do in terms of putting people's lives at risk.

Steve

Hmm, I was hoping the load times would also be cut shorter. Oh well

[Spinoza]

I did have to re- activate , though the menu shows now version 2.11. Is the reinstall of the patch neccesary ?

[Battlefront.com]

Hmm, I was hoping the load times would also be cut shorter. Oh well

It's one of those "pick which downside you want" sorts of things. There's a minimum amount of load time simply based on CM reading data from the harddrive. That is affected by your computer's I/O speed (fragmented harddrives can hurt here). That was pretty much the majority of the load time prior to this patch. So not much that could be done to make it quicker.

What happens now is that certain processes are done to make the graphics more efficient when they are used. That's where the speed boost comes from. The amount of time added depends on what the scenario's resource needs are (10 unique tanks takes 10 times as long than 1 unique tank, for example), your CPU speed, available RAM, and your video hardware (which is more than just your card).

All of that time spent number crunching is minimal compared to the resulting performance increase. 30 seconds more crunching for a 20-50% framerate boost seems a reasonable tradeoff to me. Now, if loadtimes increased to 10 minute for a 5% increase... well... we'd not have included it in the patch

I did have to re- activate , though the menu shows now version 2.11. Is the reinstall of the patch neccesary ?

You should be all set now.

Steve

[BletchleyGeek]

Yeah, part of the optimization was putting more load on "pre processing" end of things instead of "on the fly". Therefore, scenarios that have a ton of the stuff that's been newly optimized will load slower than before, but then run a ton faster when playing.

In a VERY rough way you can think of it this way... the more the increase in load time, the bigger the increase in performance. I don't know how directly proportional they are, but one is definitely an indicator of the other.

To be honest, if I were the one having to make this decision, I think I'd have done the same, especially taking into account the Real-Time gameplay, which needs the frame rate to be as high as possible (the game is as responsive as possible).

Are the load times sensitive to the level of detail?

Anyways, good job guys!

[Spinoza]

Thank You. The patch is outstanding and MG an great fun.

I do appreciate the hard work behind all this.

[Michael Emrys]

My congratulations to the gang at BFC. I took a quick look at a saved game last night, and with the options bumped up a notch or two still had reasonably smooth performance and the game looks 100% better! And that's no exaggeration.

Michael

[Battlefront.com]

Very good to hear!

A bit of trivia about some of the speed improvements. When Charles originally coded the game's graphical core (mostly in 2005/2006) video cards of the day processed certain elements using a specific methodology. Always the clever fellow, Charles coded things to take the best advantage of the options that were available to him at the time. Fast forward a few years and the cards started favoring a different methodology. The old system still is supported, but the cards and drivers started optimizing for the new way. That means the old way didn't work as efficiently as it once did.

Understandably we were tied up making new game features and new game content. Things that "worked" were not looked at because we wanted to keep moving forward. A few years passed and we started noticing that high end video cards were not performing as expected. But it varied wildly from card to card, driver version to driver version, system to system. Then came Phil.

As our First Second Programmer, Phil allowed us to go back and revisit some past things while Charles (and Phil) still keep the game moving forward. Phil had optimized and improved a number of things already, and we liked what we saw. So we decided it was time to figure out what was going wrong with the higher end cards.

Phil pretty quickly identified a number of places that were tripping the game up. But the fixes were pretty dramatic from a code standpoint. We were very far along with Market Garden and didn't want to throw testing into a potential tailspin. It's the sort of thing that could have caused weeks of delay. So he worked on the code separately.

As soon as Market Garden was out the code was integrated and handed to testers along with the patches you now have. Surprisingly few rough edges needed smoothing! And that's why you have it now instead of later

One of the odd downsides of having a long lived game engine is running into major long term technology changes. For most games the technology shifts slower than the game dies, therefore they don't have to worry about things because it's in the discount bin by the time it matters. The games you see in versions 3, 4, 5, etc. are pretty much built on new game engines each release because they have the money to do it. But for CMx2, it's been in continual production and use for 8 years. In the world of games that's a very, very long time.

Steve

[Chops]

I would say that it is time for Phil to have his Brain-Jar placed on pedestal. at least in close proximity to Charles'.

[MikeyD]

Phil was the guy who originally came up with 'movie lighting' toggle so he's already earned his place among the programming gods.

[waclaw]

After the patch, I have very jagged shadows, it is normal?

I have more frames per second, but it shadows look bad; (

[George MC]

After the patch, I have very jagged shadows, it is normal?

I have more frames per second, but it shadows look bad; (

Check your game options settings (on the 'home' page of your game just after you start-up). Make sure anti-aliasing is on; also check your quality settings.

When playing a scenario check your shaders are activated in-game (go to the bottom right hand side of the UI click 'hotkey's and look for the key to activate shaders on.

Update your graphics card drivers.

[A Canadian Cat]

Yeah, part of the optimization was putting more load on "pre processing" end of things instead of "on the fly". Therefore, scenarios that have a ton of the stuff that's been newly optimized will load slower than before, but then run a ton faster when playing.

Oh, good it is not just me:-) I upgraded a game from 2.1 to 2.11 and it took forever to load the saved game. I was very close to calling the game hung but managed to find something else to do and the game eventually loaded and worked fine. I'm not sure if and upgraded saved game has extra processing to be done or not. I'll see when I get the next turn if it takes a similar time to load that.

I'll keep it in mind that loading is slower.

[Humbug]

After the patch, I have very jagged shadows, it is normal?

I have more frames per second, but it shadows look bad; (

Check your game options settings (on the 'home' page of your game just after you start-up). Make sure anti-aliasing is on; also check your quality settings.

When playing a scenario check your shaders are activated in-game (go to the bottom right hand side of the UI click 'hotkey's and look for the key to activate shaders on.

Update your graphics card drivers.

Also for me the shaders were turned off by default for some reason, so try that. Alt+R to turn it on/off.