ALLIED - CMBN-Market Garden - BETA AAR (the better beta beater reader)

[Aragorn2002]

Ken did disencumber himself of armor rather speedily, didn't he?

Michael

It is hard to picture another outcome with all those beautiful German long range guns and optics. He tried to get close fast, which doesn't seem like a bad tactic to me under those circumstances. So perhaps you should get off his back, or perhaps accept his challenge, so you can teach him some lessons. Let's say the same scenario, with Ken playing for the German side and you for the Allies. I for one would be very interested in the outcome.

[c3k]

Well, I take no umbrage from the latest observation regarding my loss of armor. If you look back, at the time, prior to moving, I did state that it was a risk, especially from my left flank, however I thought it worthwhile to establish a possible crushing superiority at the beginning of the game. Additionally, there is a hillock near the two trees past the dunes (where my first crommie died) which I thought would protect that flank. When the tanks were hit, it all happened in one turn. A roll of the dice...nothing ventured, nothing gained.

The two AA tanks: THAT was interesting. One turn they're good...the stupid truck was WAY slower than I'd anticipated. The tanks were faster on a dirt road. Look at the at-start positions before they met: if the truck hadn't blocked the road, both AA tanks would still be in play.

Overall, two "mistakes", neither of which I could intervene with, due to the timescale. I took risks, and lost. Re-read the appropriate passages WITHOUT hindsight knowledge, or knowing Bil's deployment. (Remember, I hadn't yet seen his forces.) I'm satisfied with what I did.

As a side-benefit, I now have men with Webleys roaming the field! That's worth it.

Ken

[Jaws]

Okay...Bil took Jaws' map, cut it, changed it, placed forces on it, and designed the battle upon it!

(As mentioned waaaaay upstream, this beautiful map is Jaws' creation. It replicated the Eerde battleground very well, especially the full size map. This is a cut-down version.)

Ken

Cheers, map was tuned while reading your AAR. Nessyfield is gone

[Aragorn2002]

It was very enjoyable to watch, Ken, and that's more than what can be said about what some people post here....;-)

[Blackcat]

It is hard to picture another outcome with all those beautiful German long range guns and optics. He tried to get close fast

I think you are being a bit harsh on Mr Emrys' tongue in cheek comment. I thought rushing forward his tanks, that were armoured with papier-mache, against panthers and Jagd's before carrying out proper recce was fully in the traditions of British cavalry, and, true to those same traditions, he got slit up a treat. Bravo C3K, I say. Not many players would introduce role-play into an on-line AAR.

As an aside, it did cross my mind that C3K preferred to play infantry only fights and just dumped his tanks as soon as possible, but on reflection I decided that was silly. He could have just kept his armour back, and maybe advanced it when he knew what he was up against and when it might do some good.

Anyway, I am still cheering Mr C3K on and I remain convinced that he is still in line for a DSO (see my post up thread). I also think he has had the most appalling luck with his PIATs, in fact I seriously question whether that weapon system is modelled correctly in the game. We know in real-life the PIAT could take out a Panther when it hit, but not, in game, some much lesser vehicles.

Then there is the point that has aggravated me for years. A person firing a weapon that goes over, or under, will re-act accordingly and either lower or raise his sights. Yet still in CM we see this ridiculous effect where a shot that falls short/long is followed by a second shot that falls even shorter/longer. There was an example in a recent AAR, it might even have been one of C3ks; first shot over, second shot under, third shot ... even further short. How does that compute?

Anyway, go for it, Mr C3K, and know that I am rooting for you. The medals for your chaps are likely to be posthumous but you'll still get your DSO.

[Seedorf81]

I don't know - I think the chances of Bil knocking out as many tanks in the second half of the battle as he did in the first are vanishingly small.

Well, like all things its relative; in the second half Bill can kill, with just one shot if he gets lucky, 100% of c3k's tanks, while he couldn't even kill 85% in the first half.

[Michael Emrys]

Well, I take no umbrage from the latest observation regarding my loss of armor. If you look back, at the time, prior to moving, I did state that it was a risk, especially from my left flank, however I thought it worthwhile to establish a possible crushing superiority at the beginning of the game. Additionally, there is a hillock near the two trees past the dunes (where my first crommie died) which I thought would protect that flank. When the tanks were hit, it all happened in one turn. A roll of the dice...nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Since we are Monday morning quarterbacking (on Saturday???), with the armor that you had, I would have treated it as fragile against almost any armor or AT weaponry the German was apt to deploy. I would have sought to use it stealthily from ambush and hope for a first shot kill here or there. Putting them where the German could take the first shot was just not on.

The two AA tanks: THAT was interesting. One turn they're good...the stupid truck was WAY slower than I'd anticipated. The tanks were faster on a dirt road. Look at the at-start positions before they met: if the truck hadn't blocked the road, both AA tanks would still be in play.

Well yeah, you kind of have to file that one under "s--- happens". I will not be so hypocritical as to claim that I have never had a similar cluster f--- occur to me. I'm not sure that any of mine had such catastrophic consequences, but they were frustrating and embarrassing nonetheless.

Michael

[Tempestzzzz]

It is hard to picture another outcome with all those beautiful German long range guns and optics. He tried to get close fast, which doesn't seem like a bad tactic to me under those circumstances.

Kinda of like HMS HOOD vs BISMARCK

[Freyberg]

Getting in close is usually best for Allied armour..

[Vinnart]

I’ll save an armor critique till the end, but I would have used the armor differently than Ken did if playing as allied. This is not to say I wouldn't have lost any tanks to the Germans, but perhaps the outcome would have been more favorable using a different strategy.

[ZPB II]

In my opinion, the most important thing is that it's been a jolly good show. A bit like a movie director, he is. Spectacular bravery and blundery, if that is an actual word?

True warrior spirit! Onwards men, to the next battle in the great beyond!

[c3k]

I’ll save an armor critique till the end, but I would have used the armor differently than Ken did if playing as allied. This is not to say I wouldn't have lost any tanks to the Germans, but perhaps the outcome would have been more favorable using a different strategy.

Bah! How could the outcome be BETTER than Victory??? If I hadn't (cough, cough) allowed Bil to destroy my tanks, I wouldn't have been able to suck him into the trap which is my Town Center defense. Like Montgomery, I have pulled the German armor onto myself.

Carry on.

[c3k]

I have regained dropbox access and see that Bil has posted a turn...late last night. I'll be able to see it later tonight. I'll update you on Bil's losses as I see them.

Ken out.

[c3k]

A post mortem...of one tank's death

Not what you think! Oh, bait and switch?

Here are some pix of my forward-most Cromwell. The dead one. No, the OTHER dead one. What? Sorry, not that dead one either, the other one.

I advanced this one early on to a protected position. Or so I thought. I -think- he was killed by a Panther to his left. If not, it was the Jaggie beyond the hedgerow, towards Bil's side of the windmill. Check the visuals.

Reckless? Not to me. It was a beautiful position, covered towards the enemy's likely location. It seemed very well protected, both to the left, and the front. I don't know which of Bil's weapons killed it. If the Panther to the left or the Jaggie on the road, I still don't see the LOS/LOF. Shrug. It may've been something else. The position is still pretty good.

Ken

[Michael Emrys]

Hmmm, I've been noticing that in MG the Germans appear to have acquired a remarkable ability to shoot through seemingly impenetrable obstacles. And if not exactly impenetrable, than extremely unlikely to achieve LOS. You may have a legitimate gripe here, Ken. Further experience may shed some light on the matter.

Michael

[c3k]

Please don't mistake me. I don't have a gripe. I just don't yet see the LOS. If you look at the second picture, above, there is just the possibility that the elevation in the background may be enough to get a slight shot on the Crommie. I'll look at it later. The camera angle is low; if you imagine it raised, just a bit, there may be a slender shot from the left.

Shrug. I'll post better pictures of my tanks' graves later.

Onto last turn!!!

[c3k]

Turn 22:00 to 21:00

Hunting Jaggie 241

As long as we're looking at Piats, let's look at the guys hunting Lucky Panther, over by Dune:

Overall, not successful. Yet. If you don't succeed, throw more men at them. That's what I always say...

More.

[womble]

Looking at Bil's vids of the kills of both those Crommies, no quantum-tunnelling of AP shot seems to be required, just a misread on how well screened those locations were from where Bil's armour actually was.

Which is not to say that ME is hallucinating; there may be a bug, but it wasn't necessary in order for those cruiser tanks to die.

[Michael Emrys]

Your going after that Jagd is like Ahab's quest for the great white whale.

Michael

[c3k]

22:00 to 21:00, cont.

The Left Side

My orders:

So, not bad, but not good. A bit of a push would be good. I'd like to kill the men around the windmill. They must be holding on by their fingernails. I've got 3 (ish) platoons. One or two should be able to muster enough strength to take them.

Already Bil is reacting to my left. He's forced (chosen?) to pull a jaggie away from the town. The town is the focus. Anytime the enemy reacts to me, I'm winning.

[c3k]

Turn 22:00 to 21:00

The Town

The pix say it.

More...

[c3k]

Turn 22:00 to 21:00

More stuff.

And that's where we'll leave it.

In sum, next turn I'm trying to extricate my Jaggie 241 hunters from under its gun. Then I'll use them to destroy it in close combat. If they survive. If not, onto plan 317b.

My town defense is okay for now. More juicy targets would be good. My Piat team by the burning halftrack, far right (Church Piat) now has a 250m range to the Panther, flank shot. They still have a Target to the Panther. We'll see what they do. I'm moving a few units an action spot here or there. Just some fine tune jiggering to enable more units to put Bil in a crossfire. I like how he's moving his Jaggie away. That's a victory for me; my left side attacks/maneuvering has caused him to react and pull combat power away from the town.

Left side: I'll keep my fingers crossed for the Piat hunting the Panther. I'd like to get a platoon forward, near the windmill. If I can threaten the road crossings (3 objective areas) that would be a bonus. It may take about 5 minutes to create the opportunities and develop the combat strength to do so.

I attack on the left, in the middle, and on the right!

Carry on.

[c3k]

Looking at Bil's vids of the kills of both those Crommies, no quantum-tunnelling of AP shot seems to be required, just a misread on how well screened those locations were from where Bil's armour actually was.

Which is not to say that ME is hallucinating; there may be a bug, but it wasn't necessary in order for those cruiser tanks to die.

That's my take on it... I'm sure there's an opening there. I don't examine every LOS prior to moving. Does it show?

I put those screenies up so you could see how it looked from my perspective. Another technique would be to place a waypoint there and then drag a target line over to various highpoints and see what's what.

Ken

[Seedorf81]

Maybe it's a little early to ask, but since most of your Piat-power seems to be spent, do you think you might have been more successful if you had waited for shorter firing distances?

[c3k]

Maybe it's a little early to ask, but since most of your Piat-power seems to be spent, do you think you might have been more successful if you had waited for shorter firing distances?

Yes. Especially if I had unimpeded LOS to the rear aspect of the vehicles. Having said that, I don't think my men would be alive to take that shot.

Each situation has specific characteristics. Look at Jaggie 241. My one team is "tired". They can't get behind the Jaggie. I tried. Bil moved it. I had to stop them and shoot. (WeGo: I can't react instantly, I have to predict.) They're now in the open, in FRONT of the jagdpanzer. That's usually not a good place to be.

My Plucky Piat guys: they got the side shot, and hit. It was closer than their later shots.

Church Piat: max range right now. Do you think Bil will move his tanks closer without infantry sweeping through every bit of cover first? Or pelting them with 20mm autocannon fire instead?

I'd love to get his tanks inside the village. Look at the box formation I've used for both flanks' piats prior to contact. I was hoping he'd plunge in. He's a bit too canny for that. Or wussy. You can pick.

But, yes, all things equal, I'd prefer to have tight cover arcs, say 60m or so, and get flank/rear shots from that range.

Ken