Yippeeeeeeeee

[Oddball_E8]

well, I hope that I am wrong, and the series is going in the right direction, although I do not agree that it was just a few malcontents, because we all want the same thing, except that we are more impatient and less forgiving;)

ps. I hope though that you are doing the best game in the segment gives you a little joy;)

Actually, you should never assume that others want the same things as you.

[waclaw]

Actually, you should never assume that others want the same things as you.

and you do not want to better optimize the (unfortunate shadows), flame-throwers, etc.? in the future, better AI, better graphics, physics, model, vehicle damage, etc.?

[Oddball_E8]

and you do not want to better optimize the (unfortunate shadows), flame-throwers, etc.? in the future, better AI, better graphics, physics, model, vehicle damage, etc.?

Every player out there would like everything ever invented to be put in the game at some point.

But not every player out there cares if it never gets put in.

Personally i dont care if they put in flametrowers or not.

And optimizations, better AI, better graphics, physics and so on is not something that you should be "pushing" battlefront for since they have proven to provide that over and over again without players having to push for it, so you pushing for it is just arrogant.

Especially if you are doing it for a module and not an actual game.

So don't assume that everyone wants the same as you since some (well most) of us are more than satisfied with the current pace of development with the game.

What you are doing is pushing for a much faster pace of development. That is the difference.

[Waffen_PL]

There will be nothing identical between the games. Or do you think Shock Force, Afghanistan, Normandy, and Fortress Italy are all "identical" with just some minor differences in units?

Yes and no. I didn't play SF or Afghanistan but I see this is the same basic engine. There are important changes but you choose "small steps tactics " rather then major changes. Which is probably good but shouldn't this reduce your costs? The difference between FI and Normandy is imo something like difference between CMAK and CMBB not even CMBB and CMBO. You had to make from zero engine for SF, than you had to improve it for Normandy, make different new units from 0 new terrain etc then Commonwealth with new units but with base ready. After this the core for FI was already done too. Same for MG. For every new game and module the core is already done in previous games/modules. It's good solution but this should be also reducing your costs of future games and modules. My logic is so irrational?

Argh. Based on what information? We haven't even put up a website yet and you seem to know everything about this.

When it comes out you can make your own judgement. Doing so now, when you have very little information, doesn't seem to be very smart, does it?

I have explained my statement. I'm aware of fact that i simply don't know what I don't know and i don't know (what a smart sentence ) if you are planing something more. My judgment was based on known information that were published(and up to now there wasn't any new info) and the reaction for it of this community. In fact I'm not sure why you should make something more if majority of your community has declared that is happy to buy it even there were only few scenarios with bridges and the mill. So why you want to spend more money for expanding this module if they don't need it. If I were you i wouldn't do that I would left it like it looks now if they are happy and rest i would put into next module which they would buy it too. Or maybe it's too machiavellic?

It all depends on definitions of "quality" and "customer friendly". From our perspective there is no game out there that is even close to CM's quality at any price.

Oh, thats really selfish So what is your definitions and what is wrong with quality of games/companies i have mention? Why they are still developing and instead of going out of business? I just want to understand differences between BF's situation and their

If you think we have done this through dumb luck and taking advantage of customers, you've just made your opinions worth even less.

No, I've never said that...

Each game company has their own models which fit their own games and their own company structure. We have ours and it has kept us alive longer than most other game companies that came before us (note that Matrix was bought out)

Yes but that doesn't mean that they are infallible oracles that don't make mistakes or bad choices. matrix has almost monopolist position on this niche market. And monopolist prices are far from free-competitive market prices . Unfortunately keeping high prices can have negative effect in long terms. I don't know. maybe they are doing well, probably they do. Apparently they have enough hardcore fan who are ready to overpraise but I still think that they are self constricting their market. It's a vicious circle

[bisu]

We've listened to reasonable requests and unreasonable demands for more than a dozen years.

Steve

Well, Steve and we are grateful for that. Keep it going. I hope that you had a look at this thread:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=110504

and took some notes for the future releases. There are plenty of reasonable requests and unreasonable demands in it.

According to the discussion about the MG module I think the misunderstandings origin from our small knowledge about its actual content.. I'd understand beelzeboss and waclaw standpoint if I based my assessment on the information provided in the "Start of actual news" thread. Usually the developpers present the MAIN features of a new release in such a thread. Some content may be added afterwards but rather secondary. And frankly speaking if the features listed by Steve would eventually end as MAIN new features of MG then I'd agree that the module would look rather poor IN RELATION to the former modules. And consequently the identical pricing would make me go hmmmm.. So far we know that we will have some AA vehicles, bridges and this mill:) and the bulk of the MG news thread is actually about what will NOT be included (it is a pretty long list so far). Well, but Steve is telling us recently that we shouldn't be afraid cause he knows what a release should contain to be worth 35 bucks. Therefore I'm confident and I am waiting to be nicely surprised soon..

[Waffen_PL]

If I were you i wouldn't do that I would left it like it looks now if they are happy and rest i would put into next module which they would buy it too. Or maybe it's too machiavellic?

I suggest operation "Berlin" for next module

[ASL Veteran]

I suggest operation "Berlin" for next module

So beelzeboss, after endlessly going around in circles with Steve and others, the bottom line here is that you aren't interested in purchasing the Market Garden Module. I'm glad we are now well informed about your decision not to buy the module and the basis upon which you have made that decision. Your ability to use your knowledge of economics and the gaming market when weighing your decision to pass on the Market Garden Module is remarkable and shows that you don't make this decision lightly. Perhaps when BFC announces their next release you will be more interested in the subject matter.

In the meantime, I sincerely hope that the titles that you already own will keep you busy until the next game is announced.

[c3k]

Not only that, but some are sure to be like my friend who played CMSF and never returned to battlefront until yesterday when i convinced him to play H2H against me in CMBN-CW...

He had such a poor experienc in CMSF that he gave up on the CMx2 engine completely and moved on to other games, never looking back.

The problem is that CMSF suffered from the teething problems of the CMx2 engine at the start.

That, combined with the "shock" of getting used to a new engine, meant that he just didn't like the game.

I was the same, but i returned to try out cmbn when it came out and noticed the progress.

I'm sure quite alot of the old CMx1 players that gave up on CMx2 had a similar experience.

Dammit, man, did he get sucked back in, or not!?!?

[Battlefront.com]

Yes and no. I didn't play SF or Afghanistan but I see this is the same basic engine. There are important changes but you choose "small steps tactics " rather then major changes. Which is probably good but shouldn't this reduce your costs?

Sure, it does. You'd be paying a lot more and waiting a lot longer for each game if we weren't reusing the same code. We'd also be out of business. Guaranteed.

The difference between FI and Normandy is imo something like difference between CMAK and CMBB

We added dust to CMAK, otherwise it was 100% the same game code as CMBB. The differences between even free patches of CMx2 products is greater than the differences between those two games. As for the differences between CMBB and CMBO, there were more between CMBN and CMSF by far. Probably twice over. I'd say there were more differences between CMFI and CMBN than CMBO and CMBB.

Same for MG. For every new game and module the core is already done in previous games/modules. It's good solution but this should be also reducing your costs of future games and modules. My logic is so irrational?

Irrational? No. But it is still completely wrong. Since you have absolutely no idea what our costs are, nor how much time it takes to make things, you have no way to make a judgement. But you have done this just like you have made a judgement about Market Garden. At least you are consistent.

The fact remains... we are in an extremely high risk, highly skilled, extremely energy consuming game market. And we are not getting rich at it. We are making enough money to stay in business (a HUGE accomplishment) and keep us interested in making more games. If you are half as smart as you think you are you should understand that lowering prices without lowering quality/quantity means we will probably cease making games. Either because we are forced to or because we decide to invest our time into something better.

Which means there are only two possibilities here:

1. I am telling the truth and your logic is fatally flawed.

2. I am lying and we are secretly getting rich and you are correct that we could lower our prices.

You do not need to know the details of our costs and business strategy. You must only consider which of these two points you believe in. There's no third option.

I have explained my statement. I'm aware of fact that i simply don't know what I don't know and i don't know (what a smart sentence ) if you are planing something more. My judgment was based on known information that were published(and up to now there wasn't any new info) and the reaction for it of this community.

And in the end you might be right, for you, that Market Garden offers nothing worthy of purchase. Every release we have ever made has people saying that, so we expect nothing different this time. But we think we know our market better than you do and we are confident that Market Garden is worth more than the $35 price. Our games have never been judged well based on individual "bullet points" but the overall package. I don't see that being any different here.

And if we didn't feel we could make a product that we're happy with, we'd have cancelled it. The fact that we did not cancel it should mean something to you. That's a point you still don't seem to understand.

Oh, thats really selfish So what is your definitions and what is wrong with quality of games/companies i have mention? Why they are still developing and instead of going out of business? I just want to understand differences between BF's situation and their

How many CM fans have we lost to those other games? Not many. Why is that? Because we over charge and under deliver? Not likely. Even though many games have better graphics, better mutliplayer support, larger communities, more platforms to play on, etc. And all of them cost the same or more than CM does. The ones that don't cost as much have lower production standards or lower game standards or both. They might be high quality relative to their designs, but they don't compare to CM.

This is not an ego statement. This is simply a fact that if you asked 100 CM players what other wargames give them as much excitement, enjoyment, and prolonged use... I doubt you'd find more than a few that could name another game that exceeds CM. Again, this isn't because we are the only ones in the world who COULD make such a game. It's because we are simply the only ones in the world who ARE making such a game.

Yes but that doesn't mean that they are infallible oracles that don't make mistakes or bad choices. matrix has almost monopolist position on this niche market. And monopolist prices are far from free-competitive market prices . Unfortunately keeping high prices can have negative effect in long terms. I don't know. maybe they are doing well, probably they do. Apparently they have enough hardcore fan who are ready to overpraise but I still think that they are self constricting their market. It's a vicious circle

Matrix has a near lock on more traditional wargames, this is true. But they have no one product that directly competes with Combat Mission. They have tried several times to do this, but failed. In fact I remember the creator of Matrix saying in 2000 that he was going to make a "CM killer". 13 years later and it's not happened. Why do you suppose that is?

We have a pretty good idea what Matrix annual sales are. We also know a lot about their contracts with their game developers. We like our business model a lot better. First of all because we didn't have to get bought out to survive.

Steve

[warrenpeace]

Hi Steve:

First, I want to say that I have been playing your games for a long time, and have paid for CMBO, CMBB, CMAK, CMBN, Commonwealth Mod, CMBN 2.0, and most recently just bought the CMFI+Gustov line bundle. I think you guys do a great job overall.

However, I have to agree that the Market Garden Mod sounds a bit "light" compared to the other Mods. Commonwealth had a ton of new units on both sides. Gustov line had lots of units and also featured winter landscapes. I think the problem is that there really aren't a whole lot of new units for people that already own the CM mod. (I for one just can't get too excited about Naval forces), and it only covers one month (September, so no really new weather. Therefore most of the mod's value is going to be based on new terrain elements (sounds like mostly bridges and windmills), and scenarios. I will wait to see what people say, but based on the description of the module, I think it should be priced a bit lower ($19.99 to be precise). My guess is you will sell 2x the number, so you won't make anymore money, but you customer base will be happier .

Just my 2 cents as a long time customer.

[Waffen_PL]

So beelzeboss, after endlessly going around in circles with Steve and others, the bottom line here is that you aren't interested in purchasing the Market Garden Module. I'm glad we are now well informed about your decision not to buy the module and the basis upon which you have made that decision. Your ability to use your knowledge of economics and the gaming market when weighing your decision to pass on the Market Garden Module is remarkable and shows that you don't make this decision lightly. Perhaps when BFC announces their next release you will be more interested in the subject matter.

In the meantime, I sincerely hope that the titles that you already own will keep you busy until the next game is announced.

well... ok... nevermind:confused:

To Steve

Few explanations cause we probably never understand each other.

I'm not saying how you should make your business, I'm not saying that lowering prices is some golden solution to everything and you are too stupid to understand this simple fact. In fact i bought CMBN i bought CF and this 2.0 upgrade. I don't have so big problem with them even that I had to pay for them almost double or triple price compered to people from USA or Euroland because of currency rates(and maybe that's why I am more oversensitive of how will MG or eastern front look like ). It wasn't me to start this talking. I was only arguing with statement that prices are so good and better then competitions which I disagree and I point examples of companies and games with much different approach that is working and they are not going out of business.

I also was wondering why I have lost most of people I have played with in CMx1 I pointed that here here it is shown like these people where only few morons who wanted game for free but this is significant number of them. So I wonder what went wrong and maybe how this can be fixed and this doesn't necessarily mean lowering prices as a solution

If you are half as smart as you think you are you

yes, I think I am at least half as smart as i think...

But you have done this just like you have made a judgement about Market Garden. At least you are consistent

I can say that over and over without much effect probably.I will wait, i will see of course . I made my judgment about information that were known. You have published information about what is planned for MG. It was rather poor content in my and not only mine opinion. Of course I don't know what else there will be, however i started to get worried because you never said about anything more, there were lot of things said about what there will not be included, nonetheless majority of this community was getting ecstasy. So i start to think that there will be no will from the producer to make something more if there is absolute no demand from the community and they are happy of few bridges and the mill. And because of this I am worried. I like Market garden and i want to see good MG module but community is demotivating me and there is no new information about it

[ASL Veteran]

well... ok... nevermind:confused:

Well that is what we are discussing here isn't it? Whether or not you are going to buy the game?

I can say that over and over without much effect probably.I will wait, i will see of course . I made my judgment about information that were known.

You made your judgement - you don't think the value from purchasing the module is equal to the price that you may have to pay for it. Pretty simple really. All the rest of this discussion basically amounts to you asking Steve to PM you with a special beelzeboss discount because you want the price to be cheaper.

[YankeeDog]

Hey... you don't have to buy everything. Even a rabid fanboi as myself hasn't bought every Combat Mission title.

In my case the limitation is more time than available funds; I have a lot of other interests, a beautiful wife, and a full time job. I simply don't have enough free time for playing Combat Mission to make it worthwhile for me to purchase every title; BFC and scenario designers are putting out content faster than I can consume it.

I haven't bought CMFI yet but I probably will eventually once I finish working my way through all of the CMBN scenarios I still want to play. And when I do purchase CMFI, I'll probably be able to purchase it for less since I'll able to get the base + modules as a bundle deal.

But if bitching about how CM product X doesn't provide value Y or costs too much or whatever is the trendy thing to do here on the forum, I'd like to ask BFC to include another 5 hrs./wk gaming time with each new module purchase. Think you can have Charles work that into the code, Steve?

[BLSTK]

^^ True that, Vet.

At this point we are pretty much talking in circles. An ever-widening circle perhaps, but a circle still the same.

[The Steppenwulf]

Matrix has a near lock on more traditional wargames, this is true. But they have no one product that directly competes with Combat Mission. They have tried several times to do this, but failed. In fact I remember the creator of Matrix saying in 2000 that he was going to make a "CM killer". 13 years later and it's not happened. Why do you suppose that is?

We have a pretty good idea what Matrix annual sales are. We also know a lot about their contracts with their game developers. We like our business model a lot better. First of all because we didn't have to get bought out to survive.

I'm not even sure that Matrix have produced any 3d wargame. I confess I'm not a fan anyhow so I cannot be sure. But if this is the case then that tells you all you need to know about any attempted comparisons; half-assed!!

[Oddball_E8]

Hey... you don't have to buy everything. Even a rabid fanboi as myself hasn't bought every Combat Mission title.

In my case the limitation is more time than available funds; I have a lot of other interests, a beautiful wife, and a full time job. I simply don't have enough free time for playing Combat Mission to make it worthwhile for me to purchase every title; BFC and scenario designers are putting out content faster than I can consume it.

I haven't bought CMFI yet but I probably will eventually once I finish working my way through all of the CMBN scenarios I still want to play. And when I do purchase CMFI, I'll probably be able to purchase it for less since I'll able to get the base + modules as a bundle deal.

But if bitching about how CM product X doesn't provide value Y or costs too much or whatever is the trendy thing to do here on the forum, I'd like to ask BFC to include another 5 hrs./wk gaming time with each new module purchase. Think you can have Charles work that into the code, Steve?

Feel free to purchase CMFI for me as a present

The 113$ pricetag to have the complete bundle with dl & hardcopy and delivery is kinda steep for my income

Not that i'm complaining about that tho hehehe

(also, no, i'm not being serious. I know there are people out there that are willing to buy the game for me, but I'd rather wait and save up the money to buy it myself.)

[waclaw]

By the way, I think it should be better advertised. The other games released into the mass of videos with future content, almost daily published a new picture. Just look at the number of views on this film with a "bridge", a lot of people who want to see the contents of the upcoming module - text on the forum and one or more videos and several images is not enough (and for new consumers who had never played in the CM, the absolutely not enough)

[Waffen_PL]

You made your judgement - you don't think the value from purchasing the module is equal to the price that you may have to pay for it. Pretty simple really. All the rest of this discussion basically amounts to you asking Steve to PM you with a special beelzeboss discount because you want the price to be cheaper.

No i don't want special discount. I don't have problem with 35 dollar module and that's what i've said. I know that my English is not good so probably sometimes it's hard to understand what i'm saying but i think i have explained this enough in a post above and thats all. I can't explain that clearer and I won't

About MG module i have explained it too. Steve said that we don't have full information about module, info in "The start of actual news" is not complete and my judgment is not justify, so ok, i have to wait and see apparently there is something more. But now i'm not sure why they are doing that(whatever they are doing) because most of their customers where not even interested to have something more and would be happy whatever this module would look like

[Sequoia]

Wow, with Steve writing so much, he must not be too busy which means we're close to an official announcement.

[Aragorn2002]

I'm convinced the Market Garden module is going to be epic. If BF decides to make a special module about it, then it is guaranteed to be something special. Let's just wait and see and not make cheap predictions based on nothing. Why can't people just shut up and wait until they have something to complain about? I did my share of moaning (no Tiger II and Cromwell in CMAK, no real fog in CMBN/CMFI, etc.) but I always did it after seeing what was really there and what wasn't.

[Aragorn2002]

No i don't want special discount. I don't have problem with 35 dollar module and that's what i've said. I know that my English is not good so probably sometimes it's hard to understand what i'm saying but i think i have explained this enough in a post above and thats all. I can't explain that clearer and I won't

About MG module i have explained it too. Steve said that we don't have full information about module, info in "The start of actual news" is not complete and my judgment is not justify, so ok, i have to wait and see apparently there is something more. But now i'm not sure why they are doing that(whatever they are doing) because most of their customers where not even interested to have something more and would be happy whatever this module would look like

Precisely, my dear man, that is BF. They always bring more than they promise. Because they are not only in it for the profit. They CARE. So do us all a favor and be quiet for a couple of weeks more.

[Seedorf81]

Hi Steve:

First, I want to say that I have been playing your games for a long time, and have paid for CMBO, CMBB, CMAK, CMBN, Commonwealth Mod, CMBN 2.0, and most recently just bought the CMFI+Gustov line bundle. I think you guys do a great job overall.

However, I have to agree that the Market Garden Mod sounds a bit "light" compared to the other Mods. Commonwealth had a ton of new units on both sides. Gustov line had lots of units and also featured winter landscapes. I think the problem is that there really aren't a whole lot of new units for people that already own the CM mod. (I for one just can't get too excited about Naval forces), and it only covers one month (September, so no really new weather. Therefore most of the mod's value is going to be based on new terrain elements (sounds like mostly bridges and windmills), and scenarios. I will wait to see what people say, but based on the description of the module, I think it should be priced a bit lower ($19.99 to be precise). My guess is you will sell 2x the number, so you won't make anymore money, but you customer base will be happier .

Just my 2 cents as a long time customer.

Ehm, how do you know that MG covers just one month?

And suppose battlefront surprises us with a huge improvement in urban combat, for instance? Would that make you prepared to pay the original price?

It is not as if you have to buy MG without the possibility to see how it turns out. Be a little patient, and on this Forum and on YouTube there will be an enormous amount of information on MG, through people like me who are buying it anyway. So there you can find out if your expectations/fears were right. Now you just don't know.

But maybe it's better to describe to Battlefront what you per se want in MG so you pay the 35$ willingly? Send them a list with your demands and if they do not comply you save yourself the money.

I'm terribly sorry if I sound a little irritated, but I really do not understand why people want a discount IF THEY JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE GONNA GET! Wait and see, d*#n it!

Think how cheap MG could have been if the boys from Battlefront didn't have to participate in this useless discussions time and time again.

[Rocky Balboa]

But now i'm not sure why they are doing that(whatever they are doing) because most of their customers where not even interested to have something more and would be happy whatever this module would look like

Once again you use the term most as if you have some knowledge of what each customer buys and doesn't buy. My excitement for this module has little to do with what I have seen so far (Even though the Tiger crossing the Arnhem bridge was pretty cool). I will buy this module not because I buy everything that BF puts out but because they have a track record of giving their customers a quality product for the money they ask and I don't think they will disappoint on this one either.

What confuses me is that you admit that you have purchased everything that BF has made so I don't understand why you are so negative about this module. BF has proven that they will give you a quality product that is worth what they charge so at least give them the benefit of the doubt and wait until we have all the information.

Consider this, who has the most to lose if this module isn't worth what they ask for it? For you and me its just a game but for these guys it's much more important than that and I have no problem trusting that I will be completely satisfied with what BF delivers ...

[mjkerner]

BFC has already stated that MG will cover Sept through November, 1944. It will include more than MG battles; early Siegfried Line action, including Huertgen Forest. Different terrain, different climate, Fallschirmjaegers, infantry in overcoats, new TO&E's (not just Kriegsmarine), new goodies in the editor, and new weapons and vehicles. Yup, definitely not worth it.

Bulge will cover from December '44 to end of war in Europe.

[bisu]

I always find it funny when people are being told to be quiet on a discussion forum.

I also don't see any reason why discussions about MG should be prohibited until the moment of release. Steve himself opened a thread on MG and provided us with information on the features of the module. So he opened the topic for discussion. Percisely thanks to opinions expressed PRIOR to release BTF can improve the final product which happened many times in the past.

I entirely share the opinion of warrenpeace but I hope that BTF "always bring more than they promise".