What to consider when DOW'ing minors

[jjdenver]

Hi,

I've seen in some AAR's DOW's vs various minors. Persia, Finland, Indochina, etc.

What do you have to consider when making these DOW's? For example why doesn't SU always DOW Persia on the first clear weather turn of 1940? Why not DOW Finland on that same turn? Why wouldn't Britain DOW Madagascar and take it or any other country on the map that has any production? Are there political effects/ramifications?

Thanks

[numdydar]

The Allies in RL avoided DoWs on minors due to the fact it would have pissed off everyone else, mainly the US. Also in this time period, everyone operated under a casus belli, a Latin expression meaning the justification for acts of war. In other words, you had to have a very good reason to declare war.

This is why Germany went to great lenghts to 'manufactor' a casus belli by having German troops dress like Polish army and destroy a radio station within Germany's borders. This gave him the 'justification' to attack Poland.

Russia got away with their aggressions because, they did have minor claims on the territory they took from the Baltic states, Findland, etc. They did not have any claims on Persia. Plus Perisa was a British protectorate which meant that anyone messing with Persia would be consdered an attack on Britian too. The Game of Thrones has nothing on 19th and 20th centuary polotics lol.

As a Russia player, I do not know if you are resticted on DoWs or not. I would assume if you attacked Perisa, you would then be at war with Britain. I do not think your long term changes for survial would be good at that point

Madagascar was French and became VF when France fell. Britain did attack it in April '42 and took complete control in Sept '42. You will notice that they waited until the US was in the war . This way the US entry would not be affected if they had done this earlier. I am not sure if the game would punish this trype of behavor, but at least if this happened prior to US involvement, VF sould become a German ally if it did.

I hope this helps

[jjdenver]

numydar, thanks for the historical perspective but I'm asking about in-game effects/considerations.

[numdydar]

Well that is why in the game these things do not happen, like Russia declaring war on Persia. There is an event that allows Britian to take over Madagastar, but it did not fire in my game. Probably due to England being overrun

The Winter War and the Baltic states is also handled by event. The reasons why they are handled by event is because of what I wrote earlier because in RL, there were major reasons, Russia, Germany, etc. could not just run amock taking over whatever that wanted. So the game reflects that by using events verus allowing DoWs, that were impossible to occur in RL.

Other than China attacking Indochina in the pre-release AAR which I certainly hope they fixed as there is no way China would have done that in RL so it should not even be allowed.

[jjdenver]

Ah well I'm not aware of all the events - I'm asking about what if players just do the DOW's. For example Britain DOW's Portugal on the turn that Germany DOW's SU.

SU DOW's Persia and Finland on first clear turn of 40.

China DOW's Indo-China

etc etc - is there any downside to doing these things in-game?

[numdydar]

Try it and see Just load the game and start declaring war.

You can look as US war prep before and after the DoW. If it decreases than you know what you did had an effect. If you are now at war with Britian and/or France then you know what happened.

[jjdenver]

ah well i'm not sure if any of the scripts are date sensitive or political context-sensitive so i was hoping that one of the playtesters or designers would clue us in. Numydar you're super helpful but it would be nice if someone who actually knows what's going on would reply haha.

[MonsterClaude]

Hi jjdenver from Denver!

How is the heat down there! Hope you got air-conditionning all over the place!

Well my friend, I don't want to give you such a dull answer but the only one is learning the scripts by heart. There are way too many firing events like mobilization% linked to each other to come up with a clear, concise briefing.

Usualy all UK,ChIna Dow add up to increase neutral countries activation toward Axis including neutral Majors like USSR and USA. The reverse is true for German,Japan Dow as well.

Most of these Dow consequences become irrelevant as soon as all Major Powers have gone to war.

For instance there is a significant loss in US% activation if UK attacks Ireland, it's certainly not worth it unless tactical considerations impose that move. But no problem if USA are already at war..

Same thing with taking Indochina with the Chinese.

These activation loss or gain cannot be overlooked because it means basicaly the loss or gain of mpp revenu over many turns since mpp collection is based on activation%.

Another stronger concern would be the delay you suffered for your overall timetable to organize your counter-offensive as the Amis or the Ruskies. A few months delay for their war entry makes a huge difference!

Of course, some areas are more critical. You won't see any japanese player attacking Mongolia before Russians are at war ( foolish move) but he can attack Thailand or Indochina with little negative impact on USA activation.

Attacking Turkey is one tough call as it will trigger for both sides many undesirable events and probably USSR war entry. Persia is a Must-do for Russia once she is mobilized no matter German threats.

Same thing with Finland because the Finnish will very likeky join the Axis and you can crush them quickly because finnish units at start are NOT entrenched and NOT full strength... debatable design decision.

In conclusion, as a rule of thumb, one may avoid Dow before Major Power War entry unless one specific area is needed to outflank the enemy or prevent such an attempt by the enemy. Of course, the Axis must conquer countries with the right timing but the 1939-41 UK player should be careful with Dow or he could pave the way for an easier Axis progression. Knowing the scripts may lead to very gamey playstyle though...

I have never liked playing by the scripts. Some guys go as far as keeping one unit short in their barbarossa build up at the Russian border to make sure the USSR activation script for 8 Axis units near Warsaw cannot fire. Of course, it is all part of the game because it is a game and the real WW2 diplomatic context has not much to do with those activation scripts, sometimes strikingly ahistorical if not pure fiction.

That said, for the best gaming experience, you'd rather not bother with the scripts and learn it your way, with trials and errors, intuition and most of all, your hunger for a good fight!

[jjdenver]

Hi jjdenver from Denver!

Persia is a Must-do for Russia once she is mobilized no matter German threats.

Same thing with Finland because the Finnish will very likeky join the Axis and you can crush them quickly because finnish units at start are NOT entrenched and NOT full strength... debatable design decision.

I have never liked playing by the scripts. Some guys go as far as keeping one unit short in their barbarossa build up at the Russian border to make sure the USSR activation script for 8 Axis units near Warsaw cannot fire.

Thanks for the reply MonsterClaude. I have 2 questions from your answer.

1) When you say Persia and Finland are must-do's for SU once she is mobilized - do you mean after SU is at war with Germany?

2) I have no idea about the 8 axis units near Warsaw - do you mean German player might put 7 Axis units near Warsaw to prevent an increase in SU war readiness?

Thanks

[numdydar]

If Russia can indead declare war on Persia, regardless if Russia is at war with Germany or not, it needs to be fixed. Attacking Persia would be the same as decalaring war on Britian in RL. So if the game allows this then it is not really providing the player with the historical set of choices that the leaders at the time had to deal with.

Of course if the team wants a free for all without any restraints on the player's actions, then that is fine, but it should definately not be marketed as a WWII strategic level game.

[MonsterClaude]

Hi JJdenver!

Oops! I made a mistake about saying finnish troops were not entrenched or full-strenght at start. It's Rumanian case. Sorry!

When the Axis player is very agressive and successful in Europe or Middle-East, Russia may be 100% activated very early in the game but if I remember well is not at war with Germany yet although fully activated.

This typically happens when Germany goes for a Sealion campaign or conquer Egypt and push deeper through Syria and Iraq, taken for granted Youg/Greece have already been occupied.

Then as SU, you can go for Persia without ill effects except for the fact you have to divert 2 units for the task ( one might be ok but beware of badluck!) in a rather dangerous situation with Germans poised to invade you. But it's worth it as long as German troops are not already in Iraq. Persia provides quite a good mpp income and the sooner you get it the better.

More often than not, Germany will declare war upon SU in Mid-41. Then make sure you have pre-positioned units around the Caspian for a quick amphibious move on Teheran.

As soon as SU reached 80% activation, she should prepare Persia and Finland conquests.

Why Finland and not Rumania? Because, Rumania usually joins the Axis well before SU got 100% activation. You can try but from my experience with other SC games, it never worked as predicted since Germans can operate around Bucharest a very solid chunk of units in no time! But, if you try, give it all the steam! 1941 Rumanian surrender is a tremendous blow for the Axis.

Finland is more vulnerable. See for yourself in the AAR what Abukede managed to do despite Happycat large commitment to the northern front. It's still risky. One may try it when he has tech superiority over the Axis or when the Germans have slow or costly Barbarossa starting turns. Always study the visible German deployment on the map and keep a count of his units with the graphs helper so you know when to strike Finland at the best opportunity before Riga falls

About the German Build-up around Warsaw, I went back to the scripts in Aod because I still had the Gold one in mind. But there are pretty similar. Here is the trick from an Axis opponent I had in a Gold game.

I noticed he was keeping units backwards until i got around 85% activation for Russia pretty late in 41. I thought it was a trap, that he wanted me to attack first then he could destroy my advancing units without entrenchment and surround them.

Sometimes after I told him he did not caught me with that one. He explained very genuinely that he just wanted to avoid SU activation by keeping Axis units out of the Warsaw script radius! I thought he was kidding!

In AoD, if the Axis have more than 7 units within 2 tiles of Warsaw and some small Prussian town Inderberg or something, SU may get a big activation jump. That's why some gamey strategy would be an Axis deployment avoiding that script condition like sending more troops in Rumania or just one unit short of the scripts threshold around Warsaw.

By the way there is no easy fullproof move with only benefits against a human player It all depends on your opponent main strategy. Sometimes yours actually helps him on the long run. Too bad! I just figured it out too late in many games... so be ready to forget everything I wrote here if your opponent knows the song too well ...

[Bill101]

Hi JJ Denver

There are a whole range of scripts relating to declarations of war which will affect other neutral powers, including the USA and USSR.

So every act of aggression needs to be considered before its made because the diplomatic consequences will if made by the Axis, be likely to bring in the USA and USSR into the war sooner, while if made by the Allies, drive the USA and others away from your side.

Other minor neutrals can also be influenced by acts of aggression, and the quickest way to see them before trying out an attack in a real game would be to fire up a new game in Hotseat and just carry out the specific Declaration of War you are contemplating - though bear in mind that most scripts have variable parameters for their diplomatic effects.