A "joke" about CC3, and a question.

[Doug Beman]

Q: In CC3, what is the best way to improve the accuracy of Russian tank gunners?

A: Play as the Germans.

It would be funny if it weren't so true...I played as the Germans, and lost lots of tanks to 1st-shot hits. Playing as the Sovs, I once watched a stationary T-34 fire (not kidding) 12 shots at an immobile Pz 38(t) for 1 hit (that did minor damage).

Here's the question (remember I mentioned a question): How did you at BTS come up with the accuracy stats for CM's little polygon-people? I know the Germans were generally much more accurate than the US (eg Wittman's adventures at Villers-Bocage...) but where do you go to figure the % chance of a 1st round hit, etc etc?

Hope it all makes sense and sparks some curiosity out there.

DjB

[Guest Big Time Software]

We have pieced together accuracy details since there is no comprehensive source for battlefield accuracy results. We have some nice data and 1st hand info, but as is often the case there is no scientific study we can lay our hands on.

The truth is that the Allied tanks were probably as accurate, if not MORE accurate, than German ones. Optics were probably superior towards the end of the war and generally US tanks had pretty good fields of vision. Something like the Hetzer was horrible for many reasons, one of which being very poor vision when buttoned up. Many US tanks also had better stabilizers and other things that aid in gunner accuracy.

The difference is that the Germans could kill with just one shot and one hit, while the US might have to score several times to get a meaningful hit. Wittman's tanks were, don't forget, hit many times in that engagement (2 out of 3 Tigers and one MkIV were lost). The problem for the Allies was that hitting a Tiger wasn't good enough; they also had to penetrate or get a lucky spot. This is not easy against something like a Tiger. On the other hand, a Tiger's 88 had no such problems against Allied armor. If it hit a kill (or serious damage) was the likely result.

Steve

[Guest Big Time Software]

Slight correction: Actually we do have several data from German gunnery ranges listing accuracy for tank-mounted guns, including (estimated) "typical combat accuracy" which is, of course, lower than that on the firing range.

So these data are a good reference point. However, I reduced the accuracy a bit further because I think the German assumptions were a little too kind for combat conditions. Add to this some reasonable assumptions (based on combat interviews) for roughly how many shots it takes to "get the range" on a target, then throw in our simulation of realistic muzzle velocities and air resistance to shells in flight (i.e. precise calculations of time-to-target and shot drop due to gravity) and I think we've got a very accurate simulation of gunnery accuracy.

US gunnery accuracy was only poor very early in the war (1941-2 or so) because a lot of US optics were originally of German manufacture, so it took a while for the US to switch to alternate optics production sources. By 1944, US optics and gunnery accuracy were equal to the Germans'. Like Steve said, the problem was penetrating power, not accuracy.

Charles

[Fionn]

If you are looking for why tanks hit or missed I'd say the following in order of importance:

1. Crew Quality. (Germans superior till maybe mid-43 but much more even by mid-44 and then eventually they totally nosedived in quality)

2. Optics (German optics best until 1943... then US and British came into their own)

3. First round kill probability (basically down to Kinetic Energy.. the faster a shell went the flatter its trajectory and the less chance poor optics and poor gunners had of screwing up the shot.. and since the Germans had very high velocity guns in their most famous tanks (although by no means all their tanks) those famous tanks when manned by experienced crews got 1 shot kills.

Also remember that the Panther was only a Priority 2 weapon. The Tiger was a priority 1 weapon which means the Tiger was almost handcrafted (I'm not kidding.. parts of it almost were handcrafted.) so the Tiger got the best optics in the world PERIOD ! Match that with the most experienced crews the Germans had to offer and oodles of support (if available) and you can see why it killed lots. I have some really cool British and German evaluations of Tigers in combat which I'll be posting to the web soon which make really interesting reading.

I hope to have them up within 2 weeks so I'll let ya'll know the instant they go up.