Vehicle Pack Suggestions.

[Darknight (DC)]

To a degree these are already in, with the inclusion of turretless Stuarts in CMFI. ISTR that these turretless Stuarts were actually called Kangaroos?

There are different versions ranging from Stuarts to Shermans and m7 priests. Also IIRC the stuart recce command version was nicknamed the Kangaroo.

The Kangaroo, as most people would identify it, would be the Ram Kangaroo; it was converted from the Canadian Ram tank which was in surplus and, to answer a separate post in this thread, never saw service in the war zone).

I don't believe I've ever seen a Stuart Recce vehicle referenced as a Stuart Kangaroo...the Kangaroo's were troop carriers, the Stuart Recce is a reconnaissance vehicle.

There were also Priest 'Kangaroos' (again, with Kangaroo identifying the role as troop carrier). These were initially rigged up in Aug '44 to transport Canadian troops from the large surplus of Priest SP (which was replaced in CW formations by the Sexton SP) in Jul '44. The Priest Kangaroo would definitely be in the Normandy timeframe, though the Ram Kangaroo would not have shown up until Oct '44 at the earliest.

In Italy, there were no surplus Ram tanks to convert to Kangaroos, but either late in '44 or (more likely) early in '45, several Priests were converted to troop carriers and would be called Priest Kangaroos.

[Darknight (DC)]

Canadian Ram Mk. II same situation as above. (would work for a CMFI pack as well)

M3 Lee/Grant still being used in Normandy as a stop gap measure situation until more Sherman's arrived. (would work for a CMFI pack as well)

Bishop SPG, stop gap used due to a lack of Priest's and Sexton's. (would work for a CMFI pack as well)

Oddly enough there could have been, in the form of the CDL incarnation. The 1st. Tank Brigade was earmarked for deployment in NW Europe but didn't see any action in Normandy. They were used in small numbers for the Rhine and Elbe rivers according to Chamberlain & Ellis.

Both are thoroughly irrelevant to CM.

The Canadian Ram never saw service in the war zone (though its conversions, such as the Kangaroo and Badger did).

I have never seen any evidence of the M3 Lee/Grant in Normandy, except for the Grant CDL (as mentioned by Michael above). The CDL was for Canal Defense Light and they equipped the 1st Tank Brigade (part of the famous 79th Armoured Division). They were in Normandy but ISTR reading that there wasn't a suitable opportunity to employ them. The regiments of the 1st Tank Brigade moved on to other vehicles and duties in Autumn '44, though the Grant CDL equipped B Sqdn 49th APC Regt (formerly 49th RTR) from Feb '45 and they did indeed fire at the enemy along the Rhine in '45.

The Bishop SP was not present in Normandy. It may have been a stop-gap measure in Sicily in '43 but there were plenty of Priests (and later Sextons) for the Normandy landings.

I'm not sure the Bishop was present in '44 in Italy either but I could very well be wrong there.

[JonS]

The Kangaroo, as most people would identify it, would be the Ram Kangaroo

That probably depends on which group of most people you're chatting to In general I use it for the Priest APC, but I also realise that it was used as a indicator for a class of vehicle, rather than referring to just one example. Similarly, technically "Firefly" was used to refer to any SP 17-pr, not just the Sherman VC.

There were also Priest 'Kangaroos' (again, with Kangaroo identifying the role as troop carrier). These were initially rigged up in Aug '44 to transport Canadian troops from the large surplus of Priest SP (which was replaced in CW formations by the Sexton SP) in Jul '44.

Not quite. Sextons were used in armd divs to equip one of the two fd regts. There were also a few Army Troops regts equipped with Sexton, although they usually ended up semi-permanently affixed to one of the armd bdes.

The Priests were assigned to the fd regts in the three assault divisions (3rd, 3rd Cdn, and 50th), because of the rule that no wheeled vehicles would be allowed across the British beaches in the first 24(?) hours, in an effort to minimise traffic jams caused by vehicles bogging in the sand. During July these regts were gradually re-equipped with towed 25-pr, at which time the Priests were supposed to go back to the US (as per the Lend Lease rules), but the US didn't really want them, so they just cluttered up a field near Caen until Simonds glommed his beady little Canadian eyes on them.

The Priest Kangaroo would definitely be in the Normandy timeframe

August, yeah. Very rare, though, both in terms of the total number built (about 90) and their actual use (twice, TOTALISE and TRACTABLE, for about 12 hours each time)

In Italy, there were no surplus Ram tanks to convert to Kangaroos, but either late in '44 or (more likely) early in '45, several Priests were converted to troop carriers and would be called Priest Kangaroos.

IIRC, there were some Shermans which had their turrets surgically extracted to create Kangaroos for the final campaign in the Po Valley (not wildly popular because the infantry had to climb up and over the hull to get out), but I haven't heard of any Priests being re-built in Italy?

[jakla1027]

There were RAMs in Italy?

There were M3s in Normandy?

There were Bishops in Normandy?

No these tanks did not see action in Normandy or Italy, I'm just suggesting content or "what if" content for a CMBN pack. At least these aforementioned tanks were actually produced during the war so why not include them in a what if Pack. BF has mentioned that they'd like to some time in the future include possible "what if" tanks.

[jakla1027]

I would love to see British Commandos and Rangers!

+1 Ya that'd be a nice addition!

Also are British Commandos the same as Britsh Royal Marines? Did Royal Marines see Combat in Europe after D-day? I don't have a clue.

[JonS]

Also are British Commandos the same as Britsh Royal Marines? Did Royal Marines see Combat in Europe after D-day? I don't have a clue.

That's kind of a complex question. The British Army raised a number of Commandos, and the Royal Marines also had a number of Royal Marine Commandos. AFAICT, both used the same TOE.

But there were other Royal Marine combat formations. The Royal Marine Armoured Support Group used Centaurs and Shermans for the landings in Normandy and a short while thereafter. There was also the MNBDOs, although they didn't have much of a role in NWE.

Commandos of both flavours were used after D-Day. The two Special Service Bdes were placed under command 6th A/B Div, and held the north/north-east flank of the Orne bridgehead until the breakout in August. They were also involved in amphib ops at Walcheren, and again at the Rhine, as well as other more conventional employments. They were also active more-or-less throughout the Italian Campaign.

[jakla1027]

That's kind of a complex question. The British Army raised a number of Commandos, and the Royal Marines also had a number of Royal Marine Commandos. AFAICT, both used the same TOE.

But there were other Royal Marine combat formations. The Royal Marine Armoured Support Group used Centaurs and Shermans for the landings in Normandy and a short while thereafter. There was also the MNBDOs, although they didn't have much of a role in NWE.

Commandos of both flavours were used after D-Day. The two Special Service Bdes were placed under command 6th A/B Div, and held the north/north-east flank of the Orne bridgehead until the breakout in August. They were also involved in amphib ops at Walcheren, and again at the Rhine, as well as other more conventional employments. They were also active more-or-less throughout the Italian Campaign.

So were the Royal Marines considered an "Elite" Force? Held among the same standards as U.S. Rangers, 1st Special Service Force, Airborne troopers, and to some extent U.S. Marines?

[Darknight (DC)]

So were the Royal Marines considered an "Elite" Force? Held among the same standards as U.S. Rangers, 1st Special Service Force, Airborne troopers, and to some extent U.S. Marines?

RM Commandos would have been (Nos 41, 45, 46, 47, 48).

[JonS]

So were the Royal Marines considered an "Elite" Force? Held among the same standards as U.S. Rangers

The Commandos inspired and literally trained the Rangers. The sensei/grasshopper relationship there is clear.

[JonS]

RM Commandos would have been (Nos 41, 45, 46, 47, 48).

Army Commandos consisted of: No. 1, No. 2, No. 3, No. 4, No. 5, No. 6, No. 7, No. 8 (Guards), No. 9, No. 10 (Inter-Allied), No. 11 (Scottish), No. 12, No. 14 (Arctic), No. 30, No. 50, No. 51, No, 52, and No. 62 Commandos, and the Middle East Commando. Some were quite small and highly specialised. Most had a common light-infantry TOE and OrBat. The bolded ones served in NWE 44-45.

RM Commandos consisted of: No. 40, No. 41, No. 42, No. 43, No. 44, No. 45, No. 46, No. 47 and No. 48 (Royal Marines) Commandos. Again, the bolded ones served in NWE 44-45.

The Royal Navy also formed a number of Royal Naval Commandos, used during the initial stages of amphib invasions, mainly to defend and organise the beaches.

The RAF too formed its own commandos, tasked with establishing forward airfields as soon as possible.

[Darknight (DC)]

That probably depends on which group of most people you're chatting to In general I use it for the Priest APC, but I also realise that it was used as a indicator for a class of vehicle, rather than referring to just one example. Similarly, technically "Firefly" was used to refer to any SP 17-pr, not just the Sherman VC.

I don't think the term 'Kangaroo' had been coined for the APCs while the Priests were originally in use in Normandy Aug '44...I'm pretty sure these were termed 'de-frocked Priests'.

Not quite. Sextons were used in armd divs to equip one of the two fd regts. There were also a few Army Troops regts equipped with Sexton, although they usually ended up semi-permanently affixed to one of the armd bdes. The Priests were assigned to the fd regts in the three assault divisions (3rd, 3rd Cdn, and 50th), because of the rule that no wheeled vehicles would be allowed across the British beaches in the first 24(?) hours, in an effort to minimise traffic jams caused by vehicles bogging in the sand. During July these regts were gradually re-equipped with towed 25-pr, at which time the Priests were supposed to go back to the US (as per the Lend Lease rules), but the US didn't really want them, so they just cluttered up a field near Caen until Simonds glommed his beady little Canadian eyes on them.

Yes, you are correct that this was the specific set of circumstances and that the Priests were used by the infantry assault divisions...I should have probably expanded that point a little...next time

August, yeah. Very rare, though, both in terms of the total number built (about 90) and their actual use (twice, TOTALISE and TRACTABLE, for about 12 hours each time)

Wasn't this the point of the thread? Vehicles for the Normandy series of games that might be nice in a pack. I have a list of CW vehicles that would be nice to have in an add-on pack, all of which were actually present in the Normandy timeframe, and the de-frocked Priest would be among them, along with DD Shermans, AEC III, Centaur IV, Churchill III, Churchill AVRE, Daimler Dingo, Humber SC, M3 75mm GMC, Sherman Crab, Tetrach and Grant CDL...no need to mention the fire-breathing vehicles...yet

IIRC, there were some Shermans which had their turrets surgically extracted to create Kangaroos for the final campaign in the Po Valley (not wildly popular because the infantry had to climb up and over the hull to get out), but I haven't heard of any Priests being re-built in Italy?

On the last point, I'm going by a photo of a Priest Kangaroo identified as belonging to A Sqdn 4th QOH, 9th Armd Bde in Italy 1945. I also remember reading a little something on their use in Italy but I can't remember where at the moment.

[Battlefront.com]

To clarify some things...

Additions to CMBN are limited to September within the NW European context and that have tactical relevance to the game. Stuff that doesn't fit this definition are for other games or no games, depending.

However, we may eventually add "what if" stuff to the Normandy timeframe if there was a plausible chance they might be there. For example, MAYBE we might say the RAM II, but definitely not the E-100. The latter is a "what if" for the Bulge family.

Steve

[ChrisND]

There were Priest Kangaroos in Italy, as well as Sherman III's converted into Kangaroos. Use of both started in October 1944, IIRC.

I'm pretty sure that references to Stuart Kangaroos are indeed referring to either Stuart Recces or turret-less command vehicles. The thing would be a REALLY uneconomical troop carrier, considering its size!

[Darknight (DC)]

Army Commandos consisted of: No. 1, No. 2, No. 3, No. 4, No. 5, No. 6, No. 7, No. 8 (Guards), No. 9, No. 10 (Inter-Allied), No. 11 (Scottish), No. 12, No. 14 (Arctic), No. 30, No. 50, No. 51, No, 52, and No. 62 Commandos, and the Middle East Commando. Some were quite small and highly specialised. Most had a common light-infantry TOE and OrBat. The bolded ones served in NWE 44-45.

RM Commandos consisted of: No. 40, No. 41, No. 42, No. 43, No. 44, No. 45, No. 46, No. 47 and No. 48 (Royal Marines) Commandos. Again, the bolded ones served in NWE 44-45.

The Royal Navy also formed a number of Royal Naval Commandos, used during the initial stages of amphib invasions, mainly to defend and organise the beaches.

The RAF too formed its own commandos, tasked with establishing forward airfields as soon as possible.

Again, I believe he was referencing Normandy (or at least NWE) specifically....which is why I only referenced the five RM Commando units that would be relevant. By quoting me, you seem to imply that I have left something out, which isn't the case.

[JonS]

I don't think the term 'Kangaroo' had been coined for the APCs while the Priests were originally in use in Normandy Aug '44...I'm pretty sure these were termed 'de-frocked Priests'.

They were also known as defrocked Priests, but have your own nosy about for the origins of 'Kangaroo'.

I have a list of CW vehicles that would be nice to have in an add-on pack, all of which were actually present in the Normandy timeframe, and the de-frocked Priest would be among them, along with DD Shermans, AEC III, Centaur IV, Churchill III, Churchill AVRE, Daimler Dingo, Humber SC, M3 75mm GMC, Sherman Crab, Tetrach and Grant CDL

I fail to see the point of including the CDL, and the DD versions of the Shermans are effectively indistinguishable from the non-DD versions ... unless you either really want to see a propellor and the commanders platform, or somehow imagine that BFC would bother giving them (wildly a-historic*) amphib cabailities. The Crab would be nice, but there's such a lot of unique functional baggage that goes with it that I'd say it was very unlikely. Otherwise it's hard to disagree with anything on that list

I'm going by a photo of a Priest Kangaroo identified as belonging to A Sqdn 4th QOH, 9th Armd Bde in Italy 1945. I also remember reading a little something on their use in Italy but I can't remember where at the moment.

Interesting. I know Kangaroos were used in Italy, but as I said, I din't think it was the Priest version. Thanks

* by which I mean that DD tanks could not just rock up to any old river in the middle of a battle and start floating across.

[JonS]

Again, I believe he was referencing Normandy (or at least NWE) specifically

1st Special Service Force doesn't meet that criteria. It's also a bit silly to distinguish between RM and Army Cdos in NWE

[Darknight (DC)]

I fail to see the point of including the CDL, and the DD versions of the Shermans are effectively indistinguishable from the non-DD versions ... unless you either really want to see a propellor and the commanders platform, or somehow imagine that BFC would bother giving them (wildly a-historic*) amphib cabailities. The Crab would be nice, but there's such a lot of unique functional baggage that goes with it that I'd say it was very unlikely. Otherwise it's hard to disagree with anything on that list

The Grant CDL is just an interesting model that was present in Normandy....certainly not the top of my list...the Sherman DD on the other hand would be an interesting model that has a few graphical differences from the various other Sherman models...I would assume no amphibious capability (why would I, I'm not asking for a new feature, just the model), although it would be nice to be able to use them in a DDay scenario.

[Darknight (DC)]

It's also a bit silly to distinguish between RM and Army Cdos in NWE

Okay, I wouldn't want to be silly, so let's just leave it at the formations that were present in Normandy (though that would make 8 Commandos in total, as the 10th (Inter-Allied) didn't fight as a formation...the two French Troops were added to No 4 Commando).

[jakla1027]

To clarify some things...

Additions to CMBN are limited to September within the NW European context and that have tactical relevance to the game. Stuff that doesn't fit this definition are for other games or no games, depending.

However, we may eventually add "what if" stuff to the Normandy timeframe if there was a plausible chance they might be there. For example, MAYBE we might say the RAM II, but definitely not the E-100. The latter is a "what if" for the Bulge family.

Steve

Thanks for clarifying,

The way I hope to see possible 'what if" content for the June 44 to September 44 period is this...

If it was already in production or had been built during the time period above, then it "MIGHT" or "MAYBE" could be included. Example...say the Canadians couldn't get new Sherman's from the US (insert a plausible fictional reason...ie Transports shipping the Canadian Sherman's were sunk by U-boats...something) so the Canadians had to resort to issuing RAM II's to front line units. Same could be said of the Bishop SPG and so on so forth.

Take for instance the US M6, M18 hellcat, or M36. All tested back in the states to be armed with the 90mm gun, the M36 later actually being issued of course. Insert a plausible fictional reason...ie... US intelligence knew, recognized, and acted on the ever increasing German armour strength & thus pushed 90mm armed US tanks into production in 1943 thus becoming available to counter German tanks for the invasion of Europe

These all seem somewhat plausible "what if" possibilities.

However seeing completely new designs such as the E-50 or E75 during the June-Sep. 44 period seems completely implausible.

That's the type of "What If" content I'd personally like to see:)

[JonS]

The Grant CDL is just an interesting model that was present in Normandy ... the Sherman DD on the other hand would be an interesting model that has a few graphical differences from the various other Sherman models ...

True, they're interesting models, but in terms of CM one is irrelevant and the other, well, the difference between it and what's already in CM is irrelevant. The CDL was never ever used in a CM-style battle, and even if it had been used ... what exactly would you do with a CDL in a CM battle :confused:

I didn't mean to say you were being silly about the Army Cdos. I meant that in the context of WWII, and NWE in particular, there's effectively no difference between Army and RM Cdos ... which I believe you realise anyway

[jakla1027]

what exactly would you do with a CDL in a CM battle :confused:

Blind the hell out of somebody for maybe 2 seconds, (if your lucky) then watch it get peppered by small arms fire, thus watching the spotlight flicker out & become useless

Just wouldn't be useful in its intended real life use, in a CM battle. Unless you like changing light bulbs

[Darknight (DC)]

The Grant CDL would not be at all useful for its intended purpose, but it still carried the main 75mm gun, so it wouldn't be completely useless in the context of a "what if?"; incidentally, the CDLs actually fired their main guns at enemy targets along the Rhine in '45. This is all moot because I do not expect to see CDLs (and they are at the very bottom of my list of hopeful vehicle inclusions).

Not to dampen your enthusiasm for the Ram II Jakla, but I really hope that Battlefront decides to include vehicles in the packs that were actually used in theatre (AEC III, Centaur IV, Churchill III, Churchill AVRE, Daimler Dingo, Humber SC, M3 75mm GMC, Sherman V Crab, de-frocked Priest, Tetrach, Sherman (II/V) DD and/or Grant CDL (and the Challenger, maybe, or are they possibly just a little too late for the end-of-September timeframe?)) before including the Ram II for hypothetical "what if?" scenarios...though I think a few Ram II became Artillery OP in Normandy, but don't quote me on that one.

[A Canadian Cat]

To a degree these are already in, with the inclusion of turretless Stuarts in CMFI. ISTR that these turretless Stuarts were actually called Kangaroos?

Indeed - which is cool. I look forward to trying it out in Italy. But those were used by recon formations. I want to get the bigger ones and try it out with armoured infantry formations.

The ones based on the priests and rams were used to replace HTs in some armoured infantry formations. Recon forces are cool but I want to field the real deal:)

[A Canadian Cat]

August, yeah. Very rare, though, both in terms of the total number built (about 90) and their actual use (twice, TOTALISE and TRACTABLE, for about 12 hours each time)

Agreed but I think they would be loads of fun to experiment with - which is why I want to see them. And hey 12 hours twice is what 24-26 scenarios in CM

[Battlefront.com]

Absolutely our focus is on "actually were" before we start dabbling in "what ifs". Market Garden will fill in more gaps and Packs will continue to fill in the rest. There's sooooooooo much hardware in the NW theater it's crazy. So we have to stay focused on the things which matter most first, everything else last. And there's so much stuff to do that we will never get to all of it, which means vehicles that have no solid reason to be included (historically and/or tactically) will likely be skipped entirely. If we make an exception, for something like the RAM II or Bishop, it will because they were only historically irrelevant rather than tactically.

Steve