The start of actual news

[ASL Veteran]

Interestingly, there's an example of a series which didn't do that, the John Tiller's Campaign series made for Talonsoft (which were released in this order, East Front, West Front, East Front II and Rising Sun).

and what type of gamer do you think is going to be buying a game by John Tiller? You don't seriously think that gamers who buy John Tiller games are representative of the gaming public do you? I think it's safe to assume that people who like games by John Tiller fit into the 'hardcore' category which Steve has already said had an interest in East Front games. Quoting game sales statistics outside of what BFC has already told you is really pretty pointless don't you think? After all, who is going to know how much BFC has sold? So if BFC said that CMBB sales were 50% of CMBO sales then that means that sales were 50%. All attempts to ferret out information to the contrary is just ignoring the facts - unless of course you think Steve is a liar.

I think it's pretty remarkable to blame a 50% drop in sales to a demo ... don't you? Isn't it at least plausible that there might be some other factor involved in the sales drop besides one demo scenario? After all, one would presume that those 50% who bought CMBO but did not buy CMBB were already familiar with the game and their opinion of the demo probably didn't sway their purchase decision one way or the other.

[ForwardObserver]

and what type of gamer do you think is going to be buying a game by John Tiller? You don't seriously think that gamers who buy John Tiller games are representative of the gaming public do you? I think it's safe to assume that people who like games by John Tiller fit into the 'hardcore' category which Steve has already said had an interest in East Front games.

The Sales Rank gives a quite accurate picture of market reach (but possibly exaggerated when numbers of actual sales are small). Hardcore or non-hardcore, the data is there, without cherry-picking things to fit our world views.

Given your assumption, that sales rank was achieved by the sales to "hardcore" people. Interestingly enough, CMBB rank is in the same league as East Front II (i.e. in the 10,000's).

So here either:

1) Out of the "hardcore" audience of Tiller, a significant percentage turned their backs on CMBB, and the resulting gap was filled with "non-hardcore" players. Such "hardcore" people who turned their backs need to be either (a) SP/CC fanatics which will never be convinced, or ( people who found CMBB modeling to be "bland" or "unrealistic" or less sound that the traditional 'design for effect' in Tiller's games. The former probably have always been a small yet very vocal group, and the latter... well, what can I say?

2) A good part of the same audience of Tiller's games, was also to a great extent part of the audience of CMBB. And then CMBB scooped up more people (and the reason probably being it a more "credible" warfare simulation/game, with realistic portrayal terrain, LOS, physics, etc.).

Either could be true, yet I put my money behind 2).

Quoting game sales statistics outside of what BFC has already told you is really pretty pointless don't you think? After all, who is going to know how much BFC has sold? So if BFC said that CMBB sales were 50% of CMBO sales then that means that sales were 50%. All attempts to ferret out information to the contrary is just ignoring the facts - unless of course you think Steve is a liar.

And here I stopped reading your post. What I said is that the admittedly scant data publicly available doesn't support Steve claims regarding Eastern Front themed wargames - take it the way you want. At least you didn't say I fabricated those links I included in my post. Thank you.

[Vanir Ausf B]

So what I get from the actual data (and my subjective impressions on WitE) don't really support what Steve said about the Eastern Front (or Modern).

If you look a little closer it kinda does. The problem with your numbers is that you are only looking at one version of each product, while in actuality there are 2 versions of CMBB on Amazon by 2 different publishers and 3 versions of CMBO -- 2 boxed versions and a download, each with it's own separate sales data.

CMBB Strategy First

#16,521 (seems to have dropped in popularity since you posted )

CMBB Battlefront.com

#32,243

CMBO Softek International

#31,154

CMBO Strategy First physical copy

#35,198

CMBO Strategy First download

#4,448

So the highest selling BFC product on Amazon is CMBO, and by a large margin.

Another title which gives more direct leverage is the Close Combat original series (the Normandy game, the Market Garden game and the Eastern Front game). In terms of value for money, the third game in the series was a friggin' bargain compared to the other two. These titles are still listed on amazon.com, so we can take a look:

Close Combat

Sales Rank: #36,577 in Video Games

Close Combat 2.0: A Bridge Too Far

Sales Rank: #28,558 in Video Games

(the jewel case version ranks is about 30,000).

Close Combat III: The Russian Front

Sales Rank: #30,898 in Video Games

Close Combat 4: The Battle of the Bulge

#27,277

[ASL Veteran]

What I said is that the admittedly scant data publicly available doesn't support Steve claims regarding Eastern Front themed wargames - take it the way you want. At least you didn't say I fabricated those links I included in my post. Thank you.

So in other words, Steve was accurate about his sales figures, but inaccurate about why CMBB sales were half as much as CMBO sales. Except that you are attempting to use sales of CMBO and CMBB to make your point that East Front games = West Front games in popularity. This sort of implies that Steve was misrepresenting his own sales figures doesn't it?

I mean, if Steve says that CMBB sales were 50% those of CMBO then why would you try to use the sales figures of CMBO and CMBB to prove that East Front games = West Front games in terms of popularity if you believed Steve's claims to be accurate? It wouldn't make any sense now would it?

[Redwolf]

No matter how much some of the black/white people wish it was so, there's never a single reason for anything.

Somehow I don't think CMBB versus CMBO sales are an exception.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Enough with the racial stereotypes.

[Michael Emrys]

I'm sure Redwolf was referring to the officials at football games.

Michael

[ASL Veteran]

No matter how much some of the black/white people wish it was so, there's never a single reason for anything.

Somehow I don't think CMBB versus CMBO sales are an exception.

So I guess you would now agree that the CMBB demo was not the only contributing factor to the sales difference between CMBO and CMBB? Perhaps even an insignificant one? Would you care to list some of the other factors that might have contributed to the difference in sales between CMBO and CMBB?

While we're at it, perhaps you could explain why the sales of CMAK were less than those of CMBB? I think there is a demo for CMAK but you never mentioned if you felt it was a bad demo or not, so I'm unclear on whether you feel that the demo was a contributing factor with regards to the sales difference between CMAK and CMBO / CMBB.

[Vanir Ausf B]

They should probably cancel Shock Force 2 while they're at it.

[A Canadian Cat]

It has been a while since there was any actual news on this thread. I hope the news portion is only "mostly dead" and not "all dead". I know Steve will give us more when there is more to give but I thought I would ask for some bones anyway. You never know he might throw us one.

7. Some new vehicle variants for all forces just to keep things interesting.

Can you elaborate on this list. I am curious what variants we could be looking at.

8. New terrain features to create the feeling you're battling in The Netherlands and not France. Yes, we have even included a windmill

So Jon S showed us the ditch lock (I think that was what it was called) and you said there is a windmill - anything else you can add?

9. Bridges. Lots of 'em We are including 5 custom made historically accurate bridges, a canal bridge, and 3 new generic long bridges. Some, like the Arnhem road bridge, are massive. For the larger ones we include "stubs" which map makers can use to simulate fights around the entrance to a bridge without having the other 500+ meters stuck in there.

I would love to see some screen shots of these. I know, I know it is too early for that - We can ask.

[Sublime]

The last mention of bridges makes me hope they fix the awful LoS issues with bridges and rivers. In any map in CMBN I play, if I have to target things near a bridge over a river I have to move my view over the other bank to target, issue moves, or select things. Its like the game cant recognize things 'over the bridge' - i.e. in the games mind the bridge is inifinitely tall. Sort of like in urban maps when you click a move order it often snaps to a building closer to you.

I dont know how hard it would be to code this though I can hope, it really is a shame since a lot of combat naturally happens at the bottlenecks bridges create =)

[Holman]

I believe the addition of flat roofs has been mentioned in the Sheriff of Os. thread.

[ForwardObserver]

If you look a little closer it kinda does. The problem with your numbers is that you are only looking at one version of each product, while in actuality there are 2 versions of CMBB on Amazon by 2 different publishers and 3 versions of CMBO -- 2 boxed versions and a download, each with it's own separate sales data.

That's quite a problem, indeed. Good to see someone to go and take a look by himself.

CMBB Strategy First

#16,521 (seems to have dropped in popularity since you posted )

That's funny, its rank right now is #18,441 in Video Games.

CMBO Strategy First download

#4,448

So the highest selling BFC product on Amazon is CMBO, and by a large margin.

And right now it has improved to #4,364 in Video Games. Did anybody buy a few copies recently?

I didn't look into Direct Downloads: I was just checking boxed versions, under the impression that boxed distribution gave a better picture of the distant past. Direct Downloads look to me more as an accurate picture of the near past. Amazon download service hasn't been around as long as boxed distribution.

Aggregating the two sources - boxed & download - indeed offers a picture different than just looking at boxed versions

But anyhow, thank you for looking into the data.

[John Kettler]

One of the things I don't understand is why wouldn't there be/wasn't there a huge Russian wargaming interest in something like CMBB? Would think that would be a potentially enormous market, particularly for a country which clearly has enough wargamers to support multiple design firms, as well as considerable interest in and a culture supportive and aware of military history and military-technical matters. The GPW is still, I daresay, much more real to them than WW II is to the average American here. There are no ruined parts of American cities still standing as memorials to the fallen from ferocious sustained combat. In fact, the closest we come is a bullet holed hangar at Pearl Harbor. Hardly the same.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Redwolf]

So I guess you would now agree that the CMBB demo was not the only contributing factor to the sales difference between CMBO and CMBB? Perhaps even an insignificant one? Would you care to list some of the other factors that might have contributed to the difference in sales between CMBO and CMBB?

I never listed the demo as the only reason. Mr Black'n'White sburke simply deleted the other factors when quoting my post.

While we're at it, perhaps you could explain why the sales of CMAK were less than those of CMBB? I think there is a demo for CMAK but you never mentioned if you felt it was a bad demo or not, so I'm unclear on whether you feel that the demo was a contributing factor with regards to the sales difference between CMAK and CMBO / CMBB.

I don't think that's comparable. Regardless of what you think of the attraction of the Eastern Front to people who want and will pay for wargames, North Africa and Italy is definitely drawing less interest. Just look at the Italian games now.

Plus, the CMx1 engine was dated at the time - and practically nothing got fixed between CMBB and CMAK except the fortifications victory points bug and some vehicle turn rates. Stepping from CMBO and CMBB you had significant code changes, so people who want the fixes and don't care about the theater either way would get CMBB. There is no such reason for CMAK. Together with the EF being more attractive than North Africa and Italy I don't see a surprise at all that CMBB sold better than CMAK.

Having said that, I don't remember the CMAK demo being stellar either.

A demo for any CM style game must include at least one scenario with strong tank-to-tank combat, and the tanks needs to be well-known to casual wargamers, and they need to be sexy tanks, not some tankette or anything with less than 75mm gun. How else would you expect the unwashed masses to make it through it?

[sburke]

I never listed the demo as the only reason. Mr Black'n'White sburke simply deleted the other factors when quoting my post.

I didn't "just" delete them. Perhaps you just missed my previous response. I'd hate to think you just ignored it.

Actually I can read a post (your's included) and yes there is more nonsense there. I chose not to comment on your points A and B as there frankly wasn't anything to respond to. First you make a vague assertion followed by a simple opinion statement "CMBO was a) first, and in a different competitive environment and CMBB slowed down gameplay a lot, and with some questionable game mechanic decisions causing that."

To which I answered with "unsubstantiated opinion masquerading as data". I think that pretty much covered it.

Which left you only the friggin demo.

Is there a larger Eastern Front than Western Front audience - hell if I know. I suspect Steve's opinion is based on more than just CMBO vs CMBB sales (though that is certainly some good hard data at least for a game at the tactical scale). I do know that Steve etal have far more experience in this regard and actual data to work from than I and I am sure quite a few friends in the industry. For me to consider second guessing them seems silly. Unless I have actual information to work from what's the point? I'd only end up making comments like, well like you.

*snip*

[sburke]

It also doesn't help that your position seems to hop back and forth like a little kid needing to urinate. First you say CMBB sales were lower because of "questionable game mechanics", then you say CMBB is better because of significant codes changes and fixes. Those code changes wouldn't happen to include questionable game mechanics would they? Hey your words man, I am just trying to make sense of them and failing.

I'm not comfortable blaming CMBB 1/2 sales compared to CMBO on casual gamers and their US/Brits centric world view - which I don't doubt is real, don't get me wrong.

While CMBB is technically better and bigger CMBO was a) (deleted for lack of anything useful) and CMBB slowed down gameplay a lot, and with some questionable game mechanic decisions causing that. In addition c) *snip - all talk about the demo*

Stepping from CMBO and CMBB you had significant code changes, so people who want the fixes and don't care about the theater either way would get CMBB.

[ASL Veteran]

I never listed the demo as the only reason.

So why do you think CMBB sold less than CMBO? If it's not because of the demo then what is it?

Let's just put some fantasy sales numbers onto the various games

CMBO 100,000 units

CMBB 50,000 units

CMAK 25,000 units

Mr Redwolf, owner of Redwolf Software Inc, looks at those numbers and says .... what?

This?

What is Redwolf Software's strategy for the future after making those three games?

[ASL Veteran]

It also doesn't help that your position seems to hop back and forth like a little kid needing to urinate. First you say CMBB sales were lower because of "questionable game mechanics", then you say CMBB is better because of significant codes changes and fixes. Those code changes wouldn't happen to include questionable game mechanics would they? Hey your words man, I am just trying to make sense of them and failing.

It sure sounds like he didn't like CMx1 doesn't it?

[sburke]

It sure sounds like he didn't like CMx1 doesn't it?

Hey he is at least consistent (at least on this), at last report he wouldn't even play CMx2.

[Redwolf]

Hey he is at least consistent (at least on this), at last report he wouldn't even play CMx2.

I never said that either.

[sburke]

I never said that either.

Alright I'll retract that, there is nothing I can find on a search. I apologize for mis-stating your position on CMx2.

[kohlenklau]

Jesus Christ, a 4000 poster versus an 8000 poster. Just effin back-off and maintain your individual attitudes. but in a peaceful manner. Does this public airing get you off either of you? What a bunch of crap to see. Do you ever both think maybe you are both wrong? Muslims versus the Christians....

This is just a damn game and people do not actually die when playing it!

[Vanir Ausf B]

I didn't know sburke was Muslim.

[Tank Hunter]

This is just a damn game and people do not actually die when playing it!

Hmm I'm not sure about that. I just saw an episode of Through the Wormhole on Discovery about "The Creator" and one of the theories one of the scientist had was that our whole planet may be a simulation just like we program simulations of our own. Apparently if you zoom in enough everything that we see is also made of pixels. First thing that came on to my mind were all the pixeltruppen I have watched die! What if their world is for "real" just like "ours"??

On a more serious matter, I'm glad MG was not cancelled. I want the entire simulation of WWII.