Vulnerability of Hanomag halftrack gunners..

[bisu]

After playing several QBs as Axis I have the impression that the vulnerability of Hanomag gunners is exaggerated in game. I had numerous situations on attack and on defense where those gunners got shot at various distances like 100-300 m from the front with small arms fire immediately after having been spotted without any chance to return fire. They got always killed earlier than anybody from the accomanying infantry. I know one might say that they are exposed cause they are sitting high on the vehicle but OTOH they still have the protective armor plate in the front. Unfortunately I do not have any hard data to confirm my observations, but they were so striking to me that I would like to know whether any of you guys had similar impressions?

I lost about 10 gunners during a 1,5 hrs game to the point where I gave up using Hanomags as infantry support..

[Baneman]

I thought they were supposed to only be (mostly) vulnerable from the sides, but, like you, I also noticed in a recent playtest that every Hanomag that the enemy saw, had its gunner killed within seconds.

Might be an unforseen side-effect of the 2.00 MG tweaking ( although I don't know what exactly fired at my Hanomags ).

Need to test more I guess.

[poesel]

Being the gunner of a halftrack, US or German, is always a death sentence - unless you are very far to the back. So they are good for suppressive fire but not much else.

IIRC there was a lengthy discussion here a while ago about just that but with no conclusion.

But I agree with the OP - it feels too deadly.

[umlaut]

I agree. I have no idea whether the vunerability of halftrack gunners is actually realistic or not. But compared to CM1 they are practically useless.

[Baneman]

I actually thought it was tested in the past ( can't find the thread though ) and they were relatively safe from directly to the front.

Hence my suspicion that 2.00 has altered something slightly.

[Seedorf81]

Bisu, I agree. Even stenguns (from remarkable distances like 100m.) seem to get very easy kills on those Hanomag gunners.

[umlaut]

Well, my comment was based on experiences made before 2.00 - with both US and german HT´s.

[bisu]

Yeah, on Normandy maps I thought Hanomags could be ideal for guarding narrow roads with tall bocage on both sides, where you can reliably assure there is no fire coming from the sides. From the front the gunners targetable profile thanks to the armor plate is very small so it should be hard to eliminate him with small arms fire. Unfortunately he dies within seconds as Baneman stated.. It looks like this plate is not involved in the calculations of the incoming bullet's trajectory.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/qw4ik5u1nun2m53/MJ-rEanacw

[DasMorbo]

It's nasty business having Hanomags in the support role. Sa said before, my impression too is that they are far to vulnerable.

I have the feeling in general, that since switching to V2.01 ALL exposed crewmembers are on the KIA waiting list. Just had an incident with seven opened up vehicles, losing three TCs in the first encounter.

This needs to be checked!

I am not angry or anything, but a solution would be nice.

Best regards

Olf

[Baneman]

Ok, found it - YankeeDog did some ( not comprehensive, but still decent ) testing on Hanomags.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?p=1373887&highlight=halftrack+gunner#post1373887

This was about a year ago, so thinking Version 1.10 or so.

His findings seem to be that the gunner is relatively safe behind the gun shield when facing the incoming fire. This seems not to be the case any longer, but I haven't done any proper tests yet.

[John Kettler]

bisu,

I suspect the situation's like everything else in this game. If the gunner's yours, his life span's about an eyeblink; if it's the AI's or your human foe's, an entire squad, at close range, won't get the job done. Your men will be turned into MG-34 chutney. I shall be most interested in the test results, if someone runs some. I've been on the receiving end of AI controlled Hanomag 251 MG fire, and it was nasty, with considerable reach.

Regards,

John Kettler

[tuhhodge]

In addition to hanomag gunners, I lose every tank commander to long range small arms fire. They never seem to button up.

[womble]

Remember that any elevation advantage for the shooter, or forward tilt to the track will drastically decrease the protection afforded by the really quite small gun shield on the Hanomags. Anecdotes are generally pretty uncontrolled, and therefore of low value in assessing whether something's off.

[Baneman]

Ok, I have done some rough-and-ready testing using 14 Hanomags on a map with sealed lanes.

Opposing each HT are 6 US riflemen ( rifles only ) behind a low stone wall ( I initially used bocage, but spotting was iffy ).

The first 3 HT's had no gunner and therefore had a 4 man HQ inside. Remaining 11 were just driver and dedicated gunner.

Numbers = Second of the turn.

Spot = moment enemy discerned and Gunner stands up and begins firing.

KIA = Gunner hit.

Rev = HT driver reverses away. ( there was a mound about 20m behind them )

OOL = Out of Los.

First I ran with the enemy 100m away:

1) 58 Spot : 56 sitdown : 42 Spot : 39 sitdown : 30 Spot : 20 sitdown.

-- This was the outlier - the gunner hit an enemy who all took cover, los was lost and the gunner would sit down. Sometimes this occurred without an enemy casualty.

2) 53 Spot : 49KIA : 42Rev : 39 Re-man : 34KIA : 21OOL

3) 54 Spot : 52KIA : 42 Re-man : 39KIA : 36 Rev : 29 Re-man : 27KIA ( only had 3 man HQ )

4) 57 Spot : 52KIA

5) 48 Spot : 45KIA

6) 55 Spot : 53KIA

7) 56 Spot : 52KIA

8) 40 Spot : 35KIA

9) 57 Spot : 55KIA

10) 53 Spot : 43KIA

11) 53 Spot : 51KIA

12) 52 Spot : 51KIA

13) 55 Spot : 52KIA

14) 49 Spot : 47KIA

As you can see, engaging even 6 men at 100m is suicide for the gunner. Half the time he didn't even get a burst off.

[Baneman]

Second test had the enemy riflemen at 150m ( this is all 2.01 btw ).

1) 57 Spot : 45KIA : 39Rev : 29 Re-man : 20 OOL

2) 59 Spot : 29 sitdown : 03 Spot

3) 54 Spot : 51KIA : 41 Re-man : 39KIA : 35Rev : 29 Re-man : 25KIA

4) 50 Spot : 47KIA : drove fwd 50m !

5) 52 Spot : 48KIA

6) 54 Spot : 51KIA

7) 52 Spot : 48KIA

8) 55 Spot : 51KIA

9) 47 Spot : 39 sitdown (hit 2 enemy) : 05 Spot

10) 56 Spot : 42KIA

11) 42 Spot : 39KIA

12) 56 Spot : 44 sitdown : 16 Spot

13) 46 Spot : 44KIA

14) 58 Spot : 52KIA

Hardly an improvement. Basically if the gunner's first burst doesn't hit an enemy and suppress them, it's still suicide.

[Ranger33]

Wow, those poor guys really don't have a chance. I just upgraded to CMBN 2.0 and noticed that taking out tank commanders seems to be much more common. Maybe it isn't just my imagination.

Thanks for taking the time to test this out!

[Baneman]

Third test was the most unusual - see the first 3 results.

Enemy riflemen now at 200m.

1) 55 Spot : 51 Non-Gunner KIA : 47Rev : 30 OOL

2) 49 Spot : 47 Non-Gunner KIA : 43KIA : 37Rev : 27 Re-man : 18 OOL

3) 53 Spot : 49 Gunner + Non-Gunner KIA : 38Rev + Re-man : 35KIA

Is 200m far enough to be getting arching bullets from rifles ?

4) 47 Spot : 25 sitdown

5) 26 Spot : 14KIA

6) 49 Spot : 45KIA

7) 46 Spot : 42KIA

8) 55 Spot : 36 sitdown

9) 53 Spot : 22Rev : 18 sitdown

10) 54 Spot : 50KIA

11) 55 Spot : 19 sitdown : 06 Spot

12) 49 Spot : 36 sitdown : 07 Spot : 03KIA

13) 46 Spot : 42 sitdown : 33 Spot : 28 sitdown : 04 Spot : 01KIA

14) 38 Spot : 19 sitdown.

Slightly better - 5 survivors from 1 minute.

Overall the gunner's gunshield seems far less effective than I remember, but that's anecdotal.

I'll do a couple more tests when I get time, increasing the range further, but so far, it's not looking good for German Hanomag "fire support".

- and why can't my riflemen hit a half-head sized target when it isn't in a Halftrack ?

[Childress]

Good work, Baneman. If there's something amiss, and that appears to be the case, put it in front of BF before they release the new module and patch 2.10.

[bisu]

Thx Baneman. Well done. I assume the riflemen and the hanomag were at the same elevation and there was no forward tilt to the track

Anyway, your test confirms that the gunner gets shot within 2-4 secs in most cases. That means to me something is wrong. As you have the test setup ready maybe you could repeat it at bigger distances to see where the gunner starts to be effective against riflemen. Another problem is that there is no go-around this issue because AFAIK if there is infantry passengers in the hanomag, one of them will always stand up and man the gun. This way they can be shot one after another like ducks if they happen to travel in the proximity of the enemy..

[Doug Williams]

Yes, something is amiss here.

I did notice that I seem to lose unbuttoned tank commanders at an alarming rate recently.

Nice work, Baneman.

[Baneman]

Yes, all on ground as flat as a pancake.

In one or two cases, when the driver reversed up the mound behind them ( they could go over and get out of los that way ) a re-manning gunner might have been hit, but the initial casualties were all on the flat - including all those passenger hits.

[WynnterGreen]

+1 to the anecdotal experience that manning firing positions in a HT is suicide.

They get their heads shot off instantly by small arms fire.

I can understand them drawing fire, but fully exposed infantrymen along side a HT are hit less effectively.

Nor do they receive the adjusted rate of fire applied to HMG as far as I can see.

[c3k]

Baneman,

Thanks. If you don't mind, I have a few suggestions. Could you run the tests with ONLY gunner/driver?

Set up, say, 20 lanes. 5x each range, so we see 100 iterations. Say, 100m, 300m, and 500m.

Also, to eliminate variables, could you immobilize the halftracks? That way they couldn't run away. (Whatever motivation/experience you choose, should stay the same for them all. I advocate FANATIC, to keep the mg'er up on his weapon and to keep the driver from abandoning the vehicle.)

Additionally, give the MG'er a tight covered arc to the front. We don't want any variable fire against the shooters to skew the results. (Lucky first burst keeps US heads down, then they will never shoot at the mg'er.) Orientation of the covered arc keeps the gunshield to the front.

Finally, replace the German halftracks with US halftracks. That would be a far more exposed Mg'er. The difference between gunshields and no gunshields should then be obvious.

(I know this is asking a lot. If you cannot get to it, I'll give it a shot when I can.)

Thanks so much for the initial results.

Ken

[Baneman]

Ok, I'll do some of that tomorrow. Will do my best to eliminate variables ( this was just a quick and dirty to see if there was anything in it ).

HOWEVER

to answer my own question - ie. "why can't my riflemen hit a half-head sized target when it isn't in a Halftrack ?" I reran the test with the HT replaced by a group of 4 or 5 men.

I put them behind a hedge to encourage them to kneel. This they did, exposing more than you can see of the HT gunner.

First 9 groups were 4 men, MG42+3rifles, groups 10-15 were 5 men, MG42+rifles ( sorry, obviously bought a different bunch for the extra numbers. )

I ran the test against the 200m enemy.

After 1 minute of firing :

Groups 8 & 14 each had a yellow base WIA.

ALL other groups were competely unscathed.

I know this was even more unscientific, but seriously, that HT gunner has a magnetic attraction to bullets !!

[tarzan]

I had an experience with a German half track that was pretty interesting - in a very hilly scenario my HT became immobilized just as it came to the top of a very steep San Francisco-like street.

There were about 3 different enemy units in different houses at a pretty dramatic angle down and to the front of the HT with Thompsons and BARs all shooting at it - but finally this CMBN HT gunner had found his element and proceeded to hose those targets down one after another without even getting scared. He was shooting all of them 'down and to his front' and his little metal shield (in addition of the front of the immobilized vechicle itself) was FINALLY protecting him.

Was I ever surprised to have an invincible HT gunner just going to town hosing them down with his MG and not even getting suppressed/worried let alone shot dead 10x over. It wuz beautiful