Gustav Line QB AAR Axis

[Vanir Ausf B]

I would have brought a third tank before transport. The map doesn't look to be particularly large (around 1 km per side?).

[GreenAsJade]

Brief update: Bil pulled back his tank, and didn't keep firing at the scout. That's interesting. It makes me wonder if his tank broke fire discipline last turn, and now he's cursing that I know where it is.

Well... it's nice if he didn't mean it to happen but not so nice that now I no longer know where that tank is. In a dream scenario that Shermie is being dispatched to move over to where he think's I'm attacking on my left. Hah - I wish.

On my right nothing to report: scouts creeping still up the right, on hunt. Its oh so tempting to rush a bit forwards before hunting, but I feel like I better take it carefully. The Mortars & HMGs are reaching the overwatch locations. I'm trying hard not to get cold feet about this plan...

GaJ

[A Canadian Cat]

By the way going slow or fast over a wall makes no difference in minimizing chances of track damage. The reason is that no matter the speed the unit automatically goes slow when in contact with the wall, or object. I made a test map awhile back, and did some extensive testing. One can go though around 6 walls to go from no track damage to yellow, and about 12 wood/wire fences/hedges. Once it goes dark green it usually takes a number of breeches to go yellow. Wheeled vehicles do very poorly with hedges so avoid breeching them with jeeps/ armored cars.

Each track damage does dimish speed, but the difference between light and dark green is not great. Yelllow cuts speed in half. I set up a race on the test map I made.

Ninja'ed by Vinnart but I will post my quick testing anyway since it took me a while to create it. This was done with 15 PzIVs (three platoons). They ran on a course of about 1km with three types of walls (brick, stone, rural stone). First, the type of low wall made no noticeable difference. There is quite a bit of randomness involved but patterns emerge that I suspect will hold out over more test runs - but I am not doing any more. It looks like on average 5 wall breaches will cause a PzIV to get to yellow and 10 will take it to orange. But sometimes it only takes two walls to get to Yellow. In the thirty runs only three tanks took no damage running over their first wall.

The other thing I noticed looking at the raw data was that just because your tank had early success or early failure does not mean it will be one of the tanks that beats or exceeds the average. In two cases (look at the slow tank 2 platoon data) the HQ and number 1 tank managed to get to yellow after two wall breaches but then went the next 8 and 6 walls with no additional damage and ended up right on the average for getting to orange.

Raw data.

Fast tanks saved game

Slow tanks saved game

[GreenAsJade]

Good stuff Ian.

Isn't it fascinating that the average number of walls to Yellow, Orange and Red is less when you're moving Slow than Fast.

I remember similarly unintuitive results about "how often does a tank bog/immobilise" depending on how fast it goes over given terrain - IIRC, the number of boggings for a given distance over each terrain was independent of speed. I can almost picture the screenies that the person who tested this posted, though I haven't been able to quickly find that thread just now.

GaJ

[GreenAsJade]

Hmm - two Sherms have popped up on P523 ridge now, looking for all the world like they're guarding against my right flank press.

I might have to go conduct some 81mm artillery-vs-Shermie experiments....

GaJ

[Vanir Ausf B]

I remember similarly unintuitive results about "how often does a tank bog/immobilise" depending on how fast it goes over given terrain - IIRC, the number of boggings for a given distance over each terrain was independent of speed. I can almost picture the screenies that the person who tested this posted, though I haven't been able to quickly find that thread just now.

Speed does matter with bogging.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=101135&highlight=bogging&page=7

[Vinnart]

Speed does matter with bogging.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=101135&highlight=bogging&page=7

This is true. Mud is the worst.

Cudos Ian. I didn't get as involved with keeping stats in my testing, but both of us came up with similar results. The tanks I tested were six Sherman M4A3 (76)W(early). There definitely is a randomness to track damage like many other parts of the game like a role of the dice, and perhaps it varies a little depending on tank.

[A Canadian Cat]

Good stuff Ian.

Isn't it fascinating that the average number of walls to Yellow, Orange and Red is less when you're moving Slow than Fast.

To me the average looks pretty much the same (the slow test does show some early damage with one platoon of tanks though). I chalked this up to 15 runs not being enough to smooth out the bumps and what Vinnart said about the tanks showing down when they approached the wall (i.e. they are all really going slow over the wall).

Anyway my take away is the same as what I was already doing - spread the wall beaching around amongst your tanks. Don't let one tank keep breaching walls. When a tank gets to yellow their breaching days should be over (except for emergencies). Trust me you do not want to watch a tank drive around with orange track status.

[GreenAsJade]

OK ... now I have to "go slow" for a bit.

Bil has set up tanks that are blocking a great deal of the "scoutable terrain":

A Stuart has popped up making it very hard for me to get further and have a look into the left hand Bil-side valley...

And the two Shermies are largely denying access up the right hand side:

I can only think of making the push up the right at a time where I might have some advantage - either Bil is not looking there (clearly not the case) or I have him busy with something else.

So I need to work on the latter. At the moment, the only opportunity seems to be to keep scouting up the middle-left, where the flattish peak of MonteP is shielding the scout from the Stuart, and the bushes may hide them from the Sherms.

GaJ

[GreenAsJade]

FWIW, I tried out dropping "Heavy Medium Point" 81mm barrages on 3 shermies, and in all three cases all that was achieved was some track damage.

So this is not the solution to my problem...

GaJ

[Broadsword56]

Why not smoke 'em instead?

[GreenAsJade]

Hmmm ... I'm wondering if Bil is a little hard up for a plan, in the way that I am....

His overwatching Shermies pulled back again this turn, as if to say "yeah, I'm here, come and get me if you dare".

It's easy to get carried away with second guessing in cases like this. Does he have a mass-force building up in the valleys that I can't quite see into, and he's teasing me over on the opposite front with his Shermies as a distraction (plus continuing to deny me a view into the valleys)? Or does he know that I know that he's probably doing that, and so actually he's doing something else instead. Like waiting for me to make a push then wacking me over the head.

Well, I'll just have to kinda stick with my plan. This means inching forwards ready for the right opportunity on the right:

And probing as best I can on the left (hopefully the pulled-back Shermie this turn gives my scouts a bit of a clear run, enough to maybe see over the edge....)

GaJ

[GreenAsJade]

Why not smoke 'em instead?

I think that when the time comes for the main thrust forwards, if those guys are there, then I will certainly have to smoke them.

I really want to be able to get a peek around behind with a scout to have some sense of what's waiting, before I make the main rush. My lookout high on the right hand ridge had to hide last turn (under fire from the Shermie). He is unhiding again this turn. If he sees that the coast seems clear from Shermie overwatch, then a scout will make a run for it up the right. If not, I'll hold off and keep trying to annoy him on the left...

GaJ

[herr_oberst]

If he's playing cat-and-mouse with the Shermans (now you see 'em now you don't), and you're inching along, are the odds too high that he will spot you while you have a good bit of terrain to cover yet?

Perhaps it's time for the gamey Zerg-rush. Throw caution to the wind. "Out of the trenches lads!" amid much whistle blowing, and all that rot.

Live fast, die young, and leave a good looking corps.. er, maybe not.

[Broadsword56]

But you may never get to launch the main attack unless you blind/pick off those Shermans and make sure they can't interfere with your maneuver and movement to contact. It wouldn't take much smoke to do it. You'd better put his "eyes" out or you're simply giving him time to spot you first and react and reposition as needed.

[GreenAsJade]

Right now he's moving an MG out from behind P532 ridge to look down the valley and cut off my attack. That's OK - the same smoke that deals with the tanks can deal with the MG. Maybe I can get a bead on the MG with a mortar as well. It's definitely the case that I'm not going to be launching into an attack on the right till I have some clue what is on the left. This still remains to be seen: I think it's a turn or two before I get eyes over the crest...

GaJ

[c3k]

C'mon. How bad can a single machinegun be?

Tough position. Rock, paper, um, where'd I put the scissors?

Smoke, and close assault with 'schrecks? Or is it too soon for desperate measures?

[Sublime]

Its not just the transport aspect of trucks, in an 1.5 hour battle or even 1 hour battle the ammo is important. Even just 2 trucks really helps, especially with the SMG ammo. It gets really juicy if your save the mortar trucks and shave off the others because then your mortar'll have a total of around 50 HE rounds. Plus you can hoof it on foot with the other guys but the 81mm mortar crew really can use the truck well. Especially shifting positions. It's funny you mentioned it that way GaJ, because you and I thought nearly exactly the opposite about the same thing. Your evaluation of the map and time told you not to bring trucks for transport, where I would have brought them for ammo and transport.

Broadsword is right though, I'd save your artillery for the troops, I would not try and hit the tanks with the 81mms, too risky and theyre too weak if they dont hit just right. Smoke however, would be useful, but I'd wait unless its an on map asset that can do it quick until the shermans park somewhere juicy and open up. Then at least you can deny them. I all too often make the mistake of using my artillery too early, its very tempting but if you hang on it's usually way more valuable later in the battle.

As a suggestion I'd spread my men out more in movements, and break up the squads. His tanks and the open nature of the map means if he gets a drop on troops in movement he could shell and machine gun from a distance. This will force you to respond with armor, take it, or go to ground and hope he goes away. Spreading your men out will help mitigate this a little. Obviously you're a veteran player and probably calculate all this without even consciously thinking about it, just saying buddy...

[A Canadian Cat]

C'mon. How bad can a single machinegun be?

Wait a second this is the latest version of CMFI - doesn't that mean it probably has the updated MG characteristics ala CMBN 2.01? Are you just trying to see that new MG behaviour in action?

[Apocal]

Wait a second this is the latest version of CMFI - doesn't that mean it probably has the updated MG characteristics ala CMBN 2.01? Are you just trying to see that new MG behaviour in action?

It has the new MG behavior, so he is being sarcastic.

[c3k]

^^^

Hence, the

A single mg in a commanding position can cause a world of hurt.

[Steiner14]

Where is the second tank?

[eniced73]

Speaking of tanks. Why not move yours into hull down positions next to a spotting HQ for the next time he decides to play peek a boo with you?

[Steiner14]

Why didn't you plan to take P509 first?

On the pic it seems to offer selective protection from almost any direction and seems to be a good central base for supportive long range heavy weapon crossfire, no?

[GreenAsJade]

It struck me that unlike fortress-P523, any force "camped" on P509 would be too exposed from a wide range of angles. A hull-down view on P523 is exposed to forces peeking up from the valley behind MonteP. Indeed, my scouts creeping along each side of that hill are feeling very nervous about it.

The screenies on the previous page show what I know about where the tanks are - the last thing that I saw was the right most Shermie is parked there watching my high up scout on the right. The middle Shermie pulled back. The left Stuart was, as far as I know, sitting there, though he may too have pulled back.

Right now I'm pondering what steps to take to break the standoff that is developing... at a low level, left hand scouts might achieve this, but also maybe I should take a new stance. I have a little time to think about this, it seems, since it's Bil's turn at the moment.

GaJ