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1939 brute force help


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HI, playing a human v human game. Great map! However, its spring 1941 and russians at 0% activation. earlier in game russians on about 12%, I moved 8 units to within 8 squares of warsaw to maintain activiation as indicated - these were mostly garrison units. Italy went to axis but were not at war with british even once france had fell. so to be fair britain declared war on italy, russians didn't like it and went to zero, fair enough. It became apparent that maybe the garrison units didn't count with regards to increasing activiation. I moved 8 corps to within warsaw but after 3 turns of no movement moved them back. Is this hoiw it should work? rather fustrating that can really do anything with russia and my opponent can rome the rest of the europe/africa at leisure whilst buidling up. Just lost Egypt and still Russia on 0%- has something gone wrong or is this the intention to give axis advantage over russia? thanks

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Versus the AI I had the opposite problem. I accidently moved a German unit next to Paris and Italy went to war against France but not the UK. The AI UK then declared war on Italy. I then went into Palistine and Boom, the Rissians declare war. Syria and Iraq had not become Axix (btw there is a bug in the scripts on these countries flipping to Axis that has been fixed, but a new game has to be started for the fix to take effect).

So if you want to stop the carnage, just like the AI, you will need to start hostilities as Russia.

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I accepted the Pact. Also none of the traditional German allies joined the Axis ether, Hungary, etc. I assume that is because Russia declared war on Germany versus the other way around? Even though Russia took Berbesia from Romania. Finland did join though.

To be honest, if there is enough German units on the Eastern front, Russia should never delare on Germany. If Russia does, I can see the UK providing aid to the Russians. But would the US provide aid to England if the UK was giving aid to the Russians when Russia was the aggressor? Or Russia directly? Both of which occured in my game. The US started giving lend lease to the Russians before they joined the Allies along giving to Britan too :)

One other oddity is that at one point for several turns, the US was giving aid to both Japan AND the UK lol. This occured because I was making a special effort to keep the US out of the war for as long as possible. So I went through the Magnot Line to knock out France. So did NOT declare war on the low countries, Norway, Yugo or Greece. According to the notes this saved 20 points off of US activation (4 points per declaration of war). This also allowed Japan to get much further in China without the US cutting off aid. So in July of '42 US is only at 76% to activate versus 96% (or joined already) if the historical route had been done.

However the lend lease from the US when NOT actively in the Allies, it a game breaker. Germany is being overrun by the Russian hordes in '42 due to the Lend Lease. So that should be fixed so that no aid is provided until the US is active.

Also the save I sent is from the original version of Brute Force that was with the SC Gold package. So that may be why it did not load for you.

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I checked the USSR scripts and they are fine. Actually I did find one loophole and fixed it.

DOW on Germany... for game balance the USSR needs to be able to DOW eventually. Usually its late 42 or 43.

USA giving to Japan and UK is right. The USA didnt want to fight the Japs and as the japs if you did everything to keep the USA out of the war then it means you are negotiating peace. Roosevelt wanted to remove Hitler from power.

What date did the Soviets come in in 1942? Also did you DOW on Turkey, Iraq, Persia? The USSR would never sit idle if the Axis took all the countries surrounding them.

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Soviets came in in late '41 like August/Sept because I took Palenstine. Did not declare on ANY country in the Middle East. plus the scrips for Syria and Iraq did not fire so I had NO Axis units anywhere near Russia's southern border. Nor could I get there other than declaring war on Syria and Iraq which I did not do. So them declaring war when there was no threat on the southern border does not make sense. Even if Iraq was Axis, unless there is a certain number of Axis units within a close proximity (that the russians could see, is the only way their attacking first makes any sense. I would actually script it so Russia cannot declare war until Spring of '42 as they just were not close to being ready in '41.

When Russia did declare war, a popup came up and said that Germany had completely surprised the USSR with Germany's attack. Really, lol. Russia declares war, and are surprised when Germany counter attacks :) To me if Russia attacks, regardless as to why, they should get a much reduced amount of lend lease (if any at all) until Germany reaches certain certain locations in Russia, like Rostov, a few hexes away from Lenningrad, etc.

Plus if the rail line to Murmask is cut they should get zero lend lease until Arkangel is unfrozen.

I hope these comments help. I like Brute Force much better than the stock game so hoping you can keep making it even better :)

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They all help me a lot. I might have changed the BF1939 since your copy. I know I ran into that problem and adjusted the formula for the USSR and USA entries. They should flow a little better.

Did you do the latest patch? I will keep updating via the link I posted on here and when all the corrections or done I will pass it to Hubert for an update.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

I just finished my first game after your fixes in the Mideast and they worked great :)

However, I did find some other oddities. The main one was that the Germans were able to overrun all of Western Russia. Russia about a year later delared war on Japan sometime in '45 I think. This is because the Russian capital switched to the Far East map after the German's overrun. This was after Stalingrad was captured.

Once Japan captured enough cities in the Far East, the game to awarded Japan the capture of all of Russia. All the way to the Polish border 0). Nedless to say the Germans were not happy lol.

The AI also seems to go plane happy and build far too many planes at the expense of ground units.

There is also an event 'French Partisians disrupt supply that occurs almost every turn. This is very anoying since every city in France was occupied. And no partisian counters show up like they do in Russia and China even when the cities in those areas are occupied. So which is it partisians show appear even if all cities are occupied or no partisians should appear if all the cities are occupied.

Also, no partisains show up in the DEI/India/PHL/etc. Any reason why not? No that I mind lol.

Lend lease to the USSR. It seemed like Russia would get PP even though that was no rail link to Moscow from eith Archangel or Murmask. matter of fact there was no land connection at all between Murmask and mainland Russia. So if Archangel is frozen over does lendlease still come through?

If so, I sincely hope this is addressed in yor upcoming AoC otherwise I will not be getting it :(

The last thing is Turkey. I had all the conditions for entry, US nutreal, Syria and Iraq Axis and Axis control of the Turkish/Russian border area. Yet turkey did not join the Axis. However this area was NOT linked up to Europe yet as I took this area from the south and the eastern part of the front had not linked up with the southern one yet. Of course by the time they were linked the US was Allied so no way to tell if that was the issue.

Or was there some square that I missed somehow that prevented Turkey from being triggered?

If you need any saves just let me know which ones you want and I will see if i can provide them.

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Hi Numdydar

Just a comment about Lend Lease. Most of it reached the USSR via Vladivostoke with the next highest volume being via Persia (note initially most Lend Lease was via the Arctic but only for first months of deliveries) . The game simulates it all via convoys to Murmansk because major countries can only operate one convoy. Thus the problem is not so much the rail lines from Murmansk to Moscow but rather too much of Lend Lease is put at risk on the Arctic convoy route.

You can mod the percentage going on that route and have a DE to just give the USSR some MPPs from USA and you can create a backward convoy from Vladivostok to USA which the Axis can interdict which could notionally be empty ships returning or some of the reverse Lend Lease which were goods shipped from USSR to pay for elements of Lend Lease. In practice the Japanese did not interfere with the Lend Lease going via Vladivostok so Brute Force and the standard game are not being unrealistic in letting it get through even when the Arctic ports are isolated.

Regards

Mike

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Thanks for the commments mcaryf1. Below is what is listed durning the war.

Delivery was via the Arctic Convoys, the Persian Corridor, and the Pacific Route.

The Arctic route was the shortest and most direct route for lend-lease aid to the USSR, though it was also the most dangerous. Some 3,964,000 tons of goods were shipped by the Arctic route; 7% was lost, while 93% arrived safely.[20] This constituted some 23% of the total aid to the USSR during the war.

The Persian Corridor was the longest route, and was not fully operational until mid 1942. Thereafter it saw the passage of 4,160,000 tons of goods, 27% of the total.[20]

The Pacific Route opened in August 1941, but was affected by the start of hostilities between Japan and the US; after December 1941, only Soviet ships could be used, and, as Japan and the USSR observed a strict neutrality towards each other, only non-military goods could be transported.[21] Nevertheless, some 8,244,000 tons of goods went by this route, 50% of the total.[20]

So in my game the Artic route was cut off and I owned Persia/Iraq. This means that only 50% of the lend lease assigned to Russia should come through. As the game uses these points to purchase military units, then actually zero lend lease should be allowed since the Pacific route only allowed non-military goods to be delivered.

All three routes had limitations to what could be supplied to Russia. But given the game mechcanics, it seems the easiest way to handle it in game is to just eliminate it if Archangel is frozen and/or no rail connection to Moscow is available.

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Hi Numdydar

My point was that if you previously had any subs, air or surface ships interdicting the Arctic convoy route then they would be stopping up to 100% of the Lend Lease Aid so actually considerably too much as that route should represent less than one quarter. Thus the effect probably evens out over the game. In some ways it can be an advantage to the Axis if the UK continues to hazard a significant proportion of its MPP in trying to ship it to a doomed USSR over a route that can be sujected to losses. In some games as the Axis I choose to leave that convoy route functioning when I could close it off as I get the opportunity to weaken the UK financially. That is not too a-historic as the UK Government realised that the Arctic Convoys were not cost effective but they had to continue them to keep Stalin from considering a separate peace with Hitler.

In fact Murmansk is rated as an Industrial Centre in the standard game so units can be constructed there without need for a rail line to Moscow. If you are playing a human you could think about a house rule which required 25% of the "lend lease" MPPs to be spent on units orginating at Murmansk. If you are playing the AI then it needs all the help it can get anyway.

Regards

Mike

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I should have added in my last email that the distinction between types of goods (e.g. weapons or not) transmitted to the USSR by the various routes was fairly meaningless in real terms. The fact that the US sent trucks enabled the Soviets to motorise their army, the fact that the US sent masses of railway equipment (trains, track etc) allowed the USSR to concentrate its own heavy industry production on tanks and guns.

Regards

Mike

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