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2 Probable Bugs I've addressed before..


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Since we're on the cusp of 2.01 I think it'd be good to recap known issues and bugs that BFC hasn't commented on, as far as I know.

Right now as BUGS and not FEATURES - I've got:

Incoming off board mortars 'whistle' as they come in. They would not in real life.

Surrendered soldiers still give you LoS to the enemy. That makes no sense and shouldn't be so. Since we're on the issue, I don't personally feel panicked soldiers should necessarily provided you LOS, but the surrendered soldiers is definitely an issue. No surrendering soldier should be considered still within the chain of command of the fighting side. I feel either we should go back to having to escort prisoners, or give troops who surrender no LoS and keep as is.

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Since we're on the cusp of 2.01 I think it'd be good to recap known issues and bugs that BFC hasn't commented on, as far as I know.

Right now as BUGS and not FEATURES - I've got:

Incoming off board mortars 'whistle' as they come in. They would not in real life.

Surrendered soldiers still give you LoS to the enemy. That makes no sense and shouldn't be so. Since we're on the issue, I don't personally feel panicked soldiers should necessarily provided you LOS, but the surrendered soldiers is definitely an issue. No surrendering soldier should be considered still within the chain of command of the fighting side. I feel either we should go back to having to escort prisoners, or give troops who surrender no LoS and keep as is.

My bold.

I don't recall ever seeing this brought up before, and I certainly have never really noticed it. FWIW, the mechanic seems to be that the unit will show a surrender animation, then, once within an enemy command and control sphere, a white flag will appear over it. Afterwards, the unit disappears.

The only time the unit retains LOS, etc, is when it is kneeling with arms up and PRIOR to the white flag. At that point, if you can get close to him, he will stop surrendering.

So, I don't see it as being a bug, or even a design flaw, to have a kneeling guy with his arms up to retain LOS information. Perhaps you should consider that animation to mean that the guy is done fighting, his morale is rock bottom, he is overwhelmed, but not lost. (That's why you can still recover him.)

Once he white flags, then he's been captured. At that point you lose his information.

Personally, I think it works fine.

At what point do you think a unit should stop spotting?

Ken

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FWIW, the mechanic seems to be that the unit will show a surrender animation, then, once within an enemy command and control sphere, a white flag will appear over it. Afterwards, the unit disappears. The only time the unit retains LOS, etc, is when it is kneeling with arms up and PRIOR to the white flag. At that point, if you can get close to him, he will stop surrendering.

From my experience - you need up to 3 turns to get that white flag and for the unit to disappear. So essentially, if you are on attack - that means you have to move your entire attack line over the surrendering unit - giving the enemy precious LOS info.

So, I don't see it as being a bug, or even a design flaw, to have a kneeling guy with his arms up to retain LOS information.

And how would he be able to get the LOS info back to you (the commander)? Seeing as he is surrendering and most likely can't contact nearby squads over voice/radio. :)

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...And how would he be able to get the LOS info back to you (the commander)? Seeing as he is surrendering and most likely can't contact nearby squads over voice/radio. :)

This highlights different play styles. If you consider yourself to be ONLY (<-inserted after edit) the commander, then you cannot play this game. In CM you are the commander AND the sub-commander AND every other leader on the battlefield. Each time you select a unit, you are assuming the mantle of that unit's leadership.

I see no disconnect in the ability to select a surrendering, but not yet surrendered, unit and gaining its LOS.

Now, a different issue would be if the that LOS information is being disseminated to other units while the surrendering unit is out of command and control.

If you can select a unit, should you be blind to what information is available to that unit?

Ken

Edited to clarify: My statement, "If you consider yourself to be ONLY (<-inserted after edit) the commander, then you cannot play this game." is not meant as anything other than a pure statement of the game design. You cannot move a unit if you don't select it. The moment you select that squad or tank, you cease being the Battalion Commander. The moment you select that unit, your LOS, information, etc, is changed based on your difficulty setting. This game forces you to be every squad leader, every tank commander, every machinegun leader, and each FO, etc.

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Well C3K perhaps then when on higher difficulty levels? IMO this shouldn't be happening on Elite. As Simast said, being near the enemy doesnt mean he's captured, for example in my last battle I had a surrender soldier (1) in a building, my opponent about 7-10 german troops just outside. about 20m closer than my nearest troops who were desperately outnumbered and pinned down. They never took the single soldier prisoner - a barrage and flank counter-attack made him pull out.

I don't think a soldier putting his hands up should get info - for one he'd be ordered by either side to come out, etc. And how would he communicate spotting info? If you're being taken prisoner and you start shouting 'HEY GUYS THERES GERMANS HERE AND THEY HAVE MACHINE GUNS THERES 6 OF EM' I guarantee you, you'll get shot on the spot. Same if someone started shouting in German in front of a bunch of scared GIs presumably to his comrades.

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Well C3K perhaps then when on higher difficulty levels? IMO this shouldn't be happening on Elite. As Simast said, being near the enemy doesnt mean he's captured, for example in my last battle I had a surrender soldier (1) in a building, my opponent about 7-10 german troops just outside. about 20m closer than my nearest troops who were desperately outnumbered and pinned down. They never took the single soldier prisoner - a barrage and flank counter-attack made him pull out.

I don't think a soldier putting his hands up should get info - for one he'd be ordered by either side to come out, etc. And how would he communicate spotting info? If you're being taken prisoner and you start shouting 'HEY GUYS THERES GERMANS HERE AND THEY HAVE MACHINE GUNS THERES 6 OF EM' I guarantee you, you'll get shot on the spot. Same if someone started shouting in German in front of a bunch of scared GIs presumably to his comrades.

We may've cross-posted.

I agree, a man shouting out info as he's surrendering would likely be shot. Let's take that as a point of agreement. Now, let's see where and why we diverge.

In-game, once you select a unit, you ARE that unit. Agreed?

If that unit is a single man, you ARE that man.

If that unit is non-selectable, then you cannot be that unit. You cannot know what that unit knows.

It has been awhile since I've focused on my surrendering men. Those under my command know what will happen to their families if they surrender. ;) If I my recollection is wrong, please correct me.

If a surrendering unit is selectable, why should you, the player, not see what he sees?

If a surrendering unit is in command and control, his information should be able to travel up the chain.

At what point does a surrendering unit become unselectable?

Ken

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Why do incoming mortars not whistle. It depends on the angle of flight and the relationship you are to its course. My COP got mortared almost every day in Iraq, sometimes 2 or 3 times a day. The ones that don't make noise are very close to you. The round that impacts 25 - 100 meters away makes a sort of whistling sound, more like the air tearing than anything

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Why do incoming mortars not whistle. It depends on the angle of flight and the relationship you are to its course. My COP got mortared almost every day in Iraq, sometimes 2 or 3 times a day. The ones that don't make noise are very close to you. The round that impacts 25 - 100 meters away makes a sort of whistling sound, more like the air tearing than anything

People talking about this previously have said that mortars make a "fluttering" noise, rather than a the freight train shriek-whistle of gun-artillery, and to my recollection, all off-board fire uses the same .wav for while it's in flight.

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I don't have a dog in this fight, but just to play Devil's advocate for a moment...

If a surrendering unit is selectable, why should you, the player, not see what he sees?

Because you the player can then, after selecting a different unit, can use that intelligence in some way. You remember (unless Alzheimer's intervenes :D ) what the first unit saw and may take advantage of that information.

If a surrendering unit is in command and control, his information should be able to travel up the chain.

The counter-argument to that is that at the moment the unit chooses to surrender, the chain is broken; and unless it is re-established before the surrender is completed and the unit disappears off the map, it stays broken.

Have you ever been able to issue an order to one of your surrendering units? I haven't.

Michael

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Have you ever been able to issue an order to one of your surrendering units? I haven't.

A fast and dirty way of stopping the apparent surreality would be to make surrendering units (arguably, perhaps, but it's a different, though related argument, all uncontrollable units) unselectable. There's no real use for selecting them, since you can't do anything with them.

I suppose the problem then comes when one of a unit is "hande hoch", and his teamies are still lobbing grenades and lead at their persecutors. I don't think I've ever personally had one of my teams get that nervous piecemeal, but I've certainly seen enemy squads' morale fail a bit at a time.

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Why do incoming mortars not whistle. It depends on the angle of flight and the relationship you are to its course. My COP got mortared almost every day in Iraq, sometimes 2 or 3 times a day. The ones that don't make noise are very close to you. The round that impacts 25 - 100 meters away makes a sort of whistling sound, more like the air tearing than anything

That's my experience too, mortars tear, rockets whistle.

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I don't have a dog in this fight, but just to play Devil's advocate for a moment...

Because you the player can then, after selecting a different unit, can use that intelligence in some way. You remember (unless Alzheimer's intervenes :D ) what the first unit saw and may take advantage of that information.

The counter-argument to that is that at the moment the unit chooses to surrender, the chain is broken; and unless it is re-established before the surrender is completed and the unit disappears off the map, it stays broken.

Have you ever been able to issue an order to one of your surrendering units? I haven't.

Michael

Loving the devil's advocacy. Believe it or not, I don't have a dog in the fight either. I'm purely agnostic on the issue.

Taking this part:

Because you the player can then, after selecting a different unit, can use that intelligence in some way. You remember (unless Alzheimer's intervenes :D ) what the first unit saw and may take advantage of that information.

That argument is not even a starter. The player can do that at ANY time with ANY unit. That is the problem with a player who has a God's eye view of the field. You can't eliminate that.

When I see a guy kneeling with his arms up, I don't think he's really surrendering. He's WILLING to surrender and has stopped fighting. He is LOOKING for the OPPORTUNITY. His surrender does not occur until the white flag is a'fluttering.

It's a minor difference of viewpoint, but since I can always rescue the kneeling guy, it works for me.

What we need now if some DATA. :)

- Can kneeling guys be selected? (I've forgotten.)

- Can kneeling guys spot NEW enemy units which enter their LOS?

- Ditto for white flaggers.

(subset: can white flaggers be rescued during the time between flag showing and them disappearing?)

Ken

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A fast and dirty way of stopping the apparent surreality would be to make surrendering units (arguably, perhaps, but it's a different, though related argument, all uncontrollable units) unselectable. There's no real use for selecting them, since you can't do anything with them.

I suppose the problem then comes when one of a unit is "hande hoch", and his teamies are still lobbing grenades and lead at their persecutors. I don't think I've ever personally had one of my teams get that nervous piecemeal, but I've certainly seen enemy squads' morale fail a bit at a time.

One of the high points for me during the Hamel Vallee AAR was just that. I had a team where the leader was trying to surrender while another team member eliminated the unit he was trying to surrender to.

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NO, the problem is more than just prisoners. I can run a jeep with a crew into enemy territory. Jump out of the jeep, take my crew to go scout and find out enemy activity. But if I park the jeep in a good location, even though it is empty. it also continues to feed me information and line of sight info. to enemy activities until it is destroyed.

So there is some flaws in what provides info. to the player.

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NO, the problem is more than just prisoners. I can run a jeep with a crew into enemy territory. Jump out of the jeep, take my crew to go scout and find out enemy activity. But if I park the jeep in a good location, even though it is empty. it also continues to feed me information and line of sight info. to enemy activities until it is destroyed.

So there is some flaws in what provides info. to the player.

That's news to me... If true (need to see it), then a flaw, indeed.

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Since we're on the cusp of 2.01 I think it'd be good to recap known issues and bugs that BFC hasn't commented on, as far as I know.

Right now as BUGS and not FEATURES - I've got:

Incoming off board mortars 'whistle' as they come in. They would not in real life.

I'm not sure why you think this is a bug. To me, it's a dramatic feature that they've added, sort of like the gunfire tracers. Since it has absolutely no bearing on actual game play, just leave it the way it is.

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Loving the devil's advocacy. Believe it or not, I don't have a dog in the fight either. I'm purely agnostic on the issue.

What we need now if some DATA. :)

- Can kneeling guys be selected? (I've forgotten.)

- Can kneeling guys spot NEW enemy units which enter their LOS?

- Ditto for white flaggers.

(subset: can white flaggers be rescued during the time between flag showing and them disappearing?)

Ken

- Can kneeling guys be selected? Yes

- Can kneeling guys spot NEW enemy units which enter their LOS? Was not yet able to prove, but I can't see why not. They are still active and spotting

- Ditto for white flaggers.

- Can kneeling guys be selected? Yes

- Can kneeling guys spot NEW enemy units which enter their LOS? I expect not as once the white flag went up i could not spot even previously noted units. Note that is ALL units in the formation. A partial unit is still spotting but only from the guys w/o flags.

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NO, the problem is more than just prisoners. I can run a jeep with a crew into enemy territory. Jump out of the jeep, take my crew to go scout and find out enemy activity. But if I park the jeep in a good location, even though it is empty. it also continues to feed me information and line of sight info. to enemy activities until it is destroyed.

So there is some flaws in what provides info. to the player.

Not strictly true - just tested this. Parked a jeep in enemy territory, dismounted the driver and had him wander off into the bushes. Walked a German patrol up to it. No sight nor sound of the German patrol until I see a hand grenade tumble to the ground and KO the jeep. Perhaps in your case the jeep as well as having a driver also had passengers - dismount the passengers but the driver is still in the vehicle radioing back info?

As is and based on the above test an unmanned jeep does not work as some sort of intelligence drone.

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We may've cross-posted.

I agree, a man shouting out info as he's surrendering would likely be shot. Let's take that as a point of agreement. Now, let's see where and why we diverge.

In-game, once you select a unit, you ARE that unit. Agreed?

If that unit is a single man, you ARE that man.

If that unit is non-selectable, then you cannot be that unit. You cannot know what that unit knows.

It has been awhile since I've focused on my surrendering men. Those under my command know what will happen to their families if they surrender. ;) If I my recollection is wrong, please correct me.

If a surrendering unit is selectable, why should you, the player, not see what he sees?

If a surrendering unit is in command and control, his information should be able to travel up the chain.

At what point does a surrendering unit become unselectable?

Ken

Well then why are surrendering units selectable? You cannot give them any orders whatsoever, not even put your heads down - you're going to get shelled.

Make them unselectable, it's still what I want which is no LoS from prisoners.

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Well then why are surrendering units selectable? You cannot give them any orders whatsoever, not even put your heads down - you're going to get shelled.

Hmm. Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure that guys with their hands in the air are selectable, for the very good reason that entire units do not surrender together. In a single squad you could have some guys firing, some cowering, some with their hands in the air, and some with the white flag icon. At the same time. Given that at least some of the guys in the squad are actively following orders, why wouldn't you be able to select that unit?

Also; 'surrender' and 'surrendering' is being thrown around quite loosely here, including by me. The point has been well made that guys with their hands in the air are NOT surrendering - they are only offering, or trying, to surrender. It is only when the white flag appears that they actually surrender (and soon after disappear), and their game status changes from 'info source' to 'not an info source.'

Regards

Jon

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Kneeling with hands up, as JonS and I have stated, is more akin to someone who's totally lost the will to fight and is looking for a chance to surrender to the enemy.

IF you can get some leaders near him and push the enemy away (so no more suppression events occur), it has been my experience that you can recover them. Now, they won't be much good for the rest of the battle, but they're back in the fold. Use them for admin tasks like jeep driving, ammo schlepping, or buddy aiding.

Ken

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Yes I know this, but I wish they didn't provide LoS. Anyone trying to surrender has obviously left the Chain of Command and this is evidenced in real life of accounts of German troops shooting at others trying to surrender, same with Russians.

Jon I know you can select surrendering units, I was referencing the idea someone had about making surrendering units unselectable. I think it would be a good idea to do this actually - better than the way it is now.

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