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I understand the gruesome aspect that these weapons bring to the table but how can you claim to simulate combat and not include these weapons and their effects?

Fire effects can be simulated without resorting to displaying the burned and scorched humanity, we see this with vehicles currently. I don't see why it cant be done in other areas as well.

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I think that what Seedorf is trying to say is this:

Are we aware that using flamethrowers leads to human torches writhing and dying slowly in agony - and to we want this in the game as well?

This games is wonderfull, it really is. Just a few minutes ago I saw an advancing Tiger in the distance. And it disappeared so lifelike in smoke (from Aris his beautiful smoke and dustmod) that it left me bewildered.

I never played a human opponent, and even so I love the game.

But sometimes I'm a little bit worried that we might forget how horrible real war is. And yeah, I know that I might be considered a sentimental old fart..

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But sometimes I'm a little bit worried that we might forget how horrible real war is. And yeah, I know that I might be considered a sentimental old fart..

The step change in scale between CMx1 and x2 initially greatly increased my concern for my pTruppen. When Larry, Curly and Moe were being ablated, it was easy to detach yourself from the carnage. When you've got every squad member shown, doing their soldier thing, I find myself taking much more care of them. My heart's a bit harder now; necessary sacrifices are more often made rather than shied away from, but still I want to keep them alive. If there were flamethrowers out there, I'd be very keen to stop them getting anywhere near my troops' sensitive skins.

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But sometimes I'm a little bit worried that we might forget how horrible real war is.

Well, injuries caused by battle rarely lead to an instantanteous death in general, it can take death to come any time between minutes to days of suffering. So IMO it would be justified in general to discuss wether it is moral or not to simulate war on a PC screen and play this simulation for the sole purpose of entertainment. That would be an interesting topic to discuss actually and i cant figure out good answear right now. Porbably we dont consider it immoral because it is not the simulation of suffering itself (wich also is not part of the CM games) that we enjoy. But isnt it disrespectful towards those who died and thus immoral too to have a simulation that does not consider the aspect of the cruelity of war?

Why do you guys think it is not immoral to enjoy playing a game that is based on events that caused the unimagineably horrible suffering of millions of people? Obviously you dont, otherwise we wouldnt be discussing on this forum.

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Didn't you play "Cowboys and Indians" when you were a pup?

That era caused "unimagineably horrible suffering" to the native americans. Should we ban kids from playing it?

Of course we don't yet have CM: DEATH CAMP, where the Germans have to eliminate as many Jews, Poles, Gypsies, Homos, Commies and everyone else they hated, before the Allies can reach the camp and liberate it.

So, there is a line somewhere...

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But sometimes I'm a little bit worried that we might forget how horrible real war is. And yeah, I know that I might be considered a sentimental old fart..

No, that sentiment is perfectly reasonable, even understated. The aftermath of any serious or prolonged fighting is ghastly. People get blown apart, shredded, crushed, or just punctured. There are dead people, people dying—usually in great pain—and people seriously wounded and in danger of dying. If that isn't bad enough—and it is plenty bad—there is rubbish, smashed and discarded equipment, buildings in various states of demolition, scattered around the battlefield. Holes are blasted in the ground, trees are smashed, and fields crushed under the treads/wheels of vehicles. The place is a mess several times over. Believe me, you don't want modern warfare coming to your neighborhood.

Michael

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But sometimes I'm a little bit worried that we might forget how horrible real war is.

That seems like a reason to include them.

I still distinctly remember my feeling of horror watching an 81mm mortar barrage falling on a Russian infantry Co. trying to cross a field. It was one of the first times I played CMBB.

Sure, it's possible for someone with little imagination or knowledge, or no empathy, to become more hardened to war playing these games. I hope that most of the players come away from them with a better comprehension of just how much war sucks.

And, heck, if someone isn't playing CM what are they doing instead? Probably engaged some form of entertainment even less likely to have a constructive effect. IMO CM, as a game, is about as good as it gets for understanding the horrors of war. With flamethrowers it'd be that much better.

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So, there is a line somewhere...

Well they did release Postal I and II ;)

I want flamethrowers 100% they were there in real life, and used heavily with tanks later in the war. Plus buildings catching on fire from incoming or backblast, etc was a nice feature in CMx1 and seemed an authentic detail.

Anyways artillery probably does some of the most awful things imaginable to the human body and it's widely used in the game (of course). 50 caliber rounds sever limbs and bisect people and they're in the game too.

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Bring on the flamethrowers. We are all killing guys in many different ways in these games. I do not understand why we should debate the use of this weapon vs others. Perhaps BF just doesnt create a separate 'writhing around on fire' graphic if this is such a big issue to some. As long as the game remains a realistic interpretation of actual combat tactics, there is no problem.

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Flamethrowers, everybody seems to want them in the game. I do too.

But watching this fragment (9th video of 9, 04:22 - 04:49 ) from the documentary "Shooting War ww2 combat cameramen"

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/shooting-war/

made me wonder if we really know what we're asking for.

That's like saying "look at this video of an MG42, do we really want this?"

(And yes, I've seen the casualties of war up front and personal, so I don't need a morality lesson).

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I never played a human opponent, and even so I love the game.

But sometimes I'm a little bit worried that we might forget how horrible real war is. And yeah, I know that I might be considered a sentimental old fart..

I would love this game even with no H2H option, but since it's there, you're just depriving yourself of what is, IMO, one of the best wargaming experiences you can have period! It's amazing! If you ever feel like taking the plunge, send me an IM and I will play a mission with you. I'm no Patton or Rommel even in my own mind so no worries on that aspect.

I always try to remember the folks who had to do this for real when I play. I served in my nations armed forces for a time, never saw any combat, and when I show friends of mine who have this game series I am always apprehensive about how they will react. Most all of them are glad there are people out there who are interested enough take the time, get the details as close as is possible. People who actually give a ***t!!!

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So, there is a line somewhere...

Yeah, but why and where is that line to be drawn? You know, i dont have a problem with litterally shooting people into pieces in computergames that have excessive gore like Red Orchestra, actually i even like games like that, but isnt that immoral? What would someone say who got his real legs blown off by a grenade when he hears you boasting about what a great kill you just scored with that grenade launcher?

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Putting the whole issue of just why we tend to like this kind of stuff aside for a minute, I would have to say that at 48 I have a much better grasp of it than I used to growing up.

My father was 40 when I was born and I remember being slightly sad and a little puzzled that he didn't show any interest in my wargaming hobby. I also knew that he served in WW2 from 1942 to 1946 in the US Navy as an Aviation Ordinanceman 2nd class aboard the carriers Randolph and Bon Homme Richard. Among his keepsakes, I have a silk aviator's map of the seas around Japan- there in ink around the edge are all the names of VBF-16 men who were killed.

I had time to reflect on all this recently, as my father lost his fight with Parkinson's on December 22, 2012. He was 89 and had a good life with five children, and lots of grandchildren. Although I did talk with him at times about his experiences in the war, I could tell that, like most vets who have seen what war can do to humans, he was still haunted by the loss of friends in their prime. Worse still is just how vividly vets remember the traumatic events that will stay with them their whole life. I can only imagine how much worse it was for the ground forces at "the sharp edge".

From the WW1 era, the Kohima Epitaph- I imagine many of you know it as well:

When you go home,

Tell them of us and say,

For your tomorrow

We gave our today.

You begin to understand how so many vets felt a sense of guilt that they managed to make it through the war and their belief that the "real" heroes are the ones who never made it home.

As Ron Perlman voiced, "War... war never changes."

Perhaps our addiction to this pursuit is through some need to relate at any level, no matter how shallow, of what it must have been like. Could we have dealt with it? It amounts to a challenge for me most times, but I freely admit that I have difficulty defending my "hobby" to others who don't share it. Somehow it makes me feel guilty for the enjoyment I derive out of it, you know?

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