mortors denied

[bairdlander]

Everytime I try to use mortors they are denied.Why?I have deployed the weapon.

[Brindlewolf]

This all to do with C2 bud,or the chain of command.The mortars have to be in vocal range or radio range of the Forward Observer or HQ unit that is calling the arty fire in.With onboard mortars i usually keep them close to an HQ or FO,you'll find that works.

The C2 is in the bottom left of the screen.It basically tells what unit is in touch with who.If everything is in green,everyone is in touch.If one is on red.He's out of touch,meaning he can either not be seen or maybe heard by one or all of his upper command units/HQs.

[Pvt. Ryan]

If you use your mortars in direct fire mode they just have to have visual contact with the target.

If you want to use them in indirect fire mode they have to be in communication with the unit doing the spotting. If the spotter is within audible or visual range of the mortar he will be able to call for fire. If not, he has to be in radio communication with the mortar. If the spotter (whether an actual forward observer or regular officer) has a radio then you need a radio near the mortar. This can either be another unit with a radio or a vehicle with a radio. Once the two units are in radio communication the spotter can call for fire from anywhere on the map.

[Erwin]

It can be very tricky. Gernan mortars (at least) have a Section HQ and a Platoon HQ. I thought that if you leave the Section HQ with the mortars that you could send the Platoon HQ anywhere to spot. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. Then I found if I have (any) vehicle near the mortars with a radio that seems to help make the system work.

But, imo the whole C2 issue is way too complex and virtually incomprehensible cos there are so many "if's ands and buts" re exceptions to the rule.

I really hope this is one day streamlined so that one can focus on the fun aspects of the game - tactics, rather than game system mechanics. Ditto with the non-intuitive LOS system which has frustrated players ever since CM2 came out.

[womble]

This all to do with C2 bud,or the chain of command.

Actually "Denied" has nothing much to do with C2 chain. "Denied" means that the entity you have selected will never be able to call fire from that artillery asset.

There are two reasons I can think of for a unit being Denied access to an asset:

First, they're just not allowed to call that unit. This could be because they're a plain old unit that has no arty call privileges in the first place, or because the asset in question "requires Forward Observer", even if it might have the permissions to use other assets.

Second, the individual in the unit which generally bears the privilege of calling arty is hors de combat. FOs and HQs generally invest their ability to call arty in the "Leader" or "Commander" specialist in that unit, and if they are a casualty, the unit will no longer be able to call arty.

I would suspect that the second reason is the case here, because I don't think people are likely to expect units that can't call arty to be able to call arty, and because I think most mortars are pretty promiscuous and will let any old Tom, Dick or Herman call fire from them. Though I could be mistaken in both assumptions.

[Brindlewolf]

Actually "Denied" has nothing much to do with C2 chain. "Denied" means that the entity you have selected will never be able to call fire from that artillery asset.

There are two reasons I can think of for a unit being Denied access to an asset:

First, they're just not allowed to call that unit. This could be because they're a plain old unit that has no arty call privileges in the first place, or because the asset in question "requires Forward Observer", even if it might have the permissions to use other assets.

Second, the individual in the unit which generally bears the privilege of calling arty is hors de combat. FOs and HQs generally invest their ability to call arty in the "Leader" or "Commander" specialist in that unit, and if they are a casualty, the unit will no longer be able to call arty.

I would suspect that the second reason is the case here, because I don't think people are likely to expect units that can't call arty to be able to call arty, and because I think most mortars are pretty promiscuous and will let any old Tom, Dick or Herman call fire from them. Though I could be mistaken in both assumptions.

I'm assuming the OP is talking about mortars he himself has deployed.Most HQs can call these in if in range.For the off-map stuff,the big stuff,yup usually only a FO and sometimes a high ranking CO can call these in.For the small on map mortars,you can still get "Denied" if not in range of HQs.

Casualties or loss of a radio(and it happens) or LOS issues by HQs and FOs are also another factor.Now that is bloody annoying.Perfect LOS and you can't call anything in.Denied,even though you have radios,binocs,in range mortars,all C2 present etc.Now that is a strange one at times.

[womble]

I'm assuming the OP is talking about mortars he himself has deployed.Most HQs can call these in if in range.For the off-map stuff,the big stuff,yup usually only a FO and sometimes a high ranking CO can call these in.For the small on map mortars,you can still get "Denied" if not in range of HQs.

Really? I get "out of contact" or "not positioned". "Denied" is a particular state that can apply to on or off-map assets. A plain old infantry team will always have "Denied" because they can't call any arty at all.

Casualties or loss of a radio(and it happens) or LOS issues by HQs and FOs are also another factor.Now that is bloody annoying.Perfect LOS and you can't call anything in.Denied,even though you have radios,binocs,in range mortars,all C2 present etc.Now that is a strange one at times.

This has been gone over and over. While "spotter units" IRL routinely had all their members trained in the process of calling fire, it's perfectly plain that this isn't the case for any unit depicted on the CM battlefield this far. An "FO team" has precisely one eligible person in it, plus usually a radio man and a security/runner bod. Ditto most HQs (it may be that teams that include an XO might be able to call arty when the main leader has been geeked, so long as the "Asst" i.e. XO, is still active). If you want to have a 7-man spotter section, buy 7 FOs and assume the local commander on the ground has given them some 'spare' bods as radio toters and security and they're operating as independent elements rather than all together. Unless you want to bunch them up.

Now, I may be wrong, but I don't think so. Next time you get Denied (not "Out of Contact" or "not positioned") check whether you've actually got a spotter-eligible individual in the calling team still alive.

[Brindlewolf]

Indeed

[Schutzenpanzerwagen]

Here's another mortar question, perhaps answered elsewhere, but as I am new I seem to be allowed a certain amount of ignorance :confused: for an undetermined grace period:

Suppose we have a spotter on the left side of the game area. He sees a target. There is no mortar near him, but there is a mortar on the right side of the game area that cannot see the target.

Can the spotter pass a message up to the highest level HQ, on the left side, assuming an unbroken chain of command, who can then pass the command down to the mortar, on the right hand side, again assuming an unbroken chain of command?

That is, viewing the chain of command as a graph, if you have a spotter on one leaf of the graph, and the mortar on another, and no breaks of C2 between the root (an HQ) and either of those leaves, can the spotter call in the mortar, no matter where they are?

I suppose I am confused as whether units can first pass commands up the chain of command and then have them relayed down elsewhere, as I believe happens in spotting, at least in some of the lower levels of game skill that I am happily inhabiting now.

Or, on the other hand, if commands only flow down, and never information up, in which case information would also never similarly flow up one side and then down another.

If a lieutenant can handle a compass skillfully, I'm sure they can handle very simple graph theory. A large chalkboard on the battlefield would suffice, and be easy to read for all troops.

Thanks!

Bill

[WynnterGreen]

Second, the individual in the unit which generally bears the privilege of calling arty is hors de combat. FOs and HQs generally invest their ability to call arty in the "Leader" or "Commander" specialist in that unit, and if they are a casualty, the unit will no longer be able to call arty.

I wish they'd fix the fact that if the FO becomes a casualty while calling in a stonk, neither the radio operator or other members of the team can can call it off.

Which means endless spotting rounds, and or, loss of the arty asset completely because NO ONE can call cease fire.

Meanwhile in another game I have going, I was able to call off artillery with a unit who's radio operator was KO elsewhere.

Yet the unit, stranded with no radio and completely out of C2, was able to cease the fire mission.

[agusto]

You can call off an on-map artillery assets strike by clicking on it and issueing a 'clear target' command.

[womble]

I wish they'd fix the fact that if the FO becomes a casualty while calling in a stonk, neither the radio operator or other members of the team can can call it off.

Which means endless spotting rounds, and or, loss of the arty asset completely because NO ONE can call cease fire.

I thought they'd claimed to have fixed this one.

[Sublime]

Here's another mortar question, perhaps answered elsewhere, but as I am new I seem to be allowed a certain amount of ignorance :confused: for an undetermined grace period:

Suppose we have a spotter on the left side of the game area. He sees a target. There is no mortar near him, but there is a mortar on the right side of the game area that cannot see the target.

Can the spotter pass a message up to the highest level HQ, on the left side, assuming an unbroken chain of command, who can then pass the command down to the mortar, on the right hand side, again assuming an unbroken chain of command?

That is, viewing the chain of command as a graph, if you have a spotter on one leaf of the graph, and the mortar on another, and no breaks of C2 between the root (an HQ) and either of those leaves, can the spotter call in the mortar, no matter where they are?

I suppose I am confused as whether units can first pass commands up the chain of command and then have them relayed down elsewhere, as I believe happens in spotting, at least in some of the lower levels of game skill that I am happily inhabiting now.

Or, on the other hand, if commands only flow down, and never information up, in which case information would also never similarly flow up one side and then down another.

If a lieutenant can handle a compass skillfully, I'm sure they can handle very simple graph theory. A large chalkboard on the battlefield would suffice, and be easy to read for all troops.

Thanks!

Bill

Units in C2 can and will share spotting info with eachother. However dont expect it immediately, usually takes a few minutes at least. Also, to answer your question, yes. If the mortar on the other side of the map has a team or jeep with a radio within 1 AS of it, so it can use it, then anyone else (FO, HQs) with radios in contact with the mortar team can call in a fire mission from them. When selecting the on map mortars with the FO/HQ team, youll notice when you select a certain mortar team on the fire mission panel, that the icon above the mortar team selected (on the game map) gets highlighted orange. So you can see which mortar team your going to be using. This is very useful - perhaps you have some mortars behind a hill, but others on the hill for direct fire purposes. Obviously you'd want the D/F mortars to not be called in. ( well, probably, but you get it right?)

[Pak40]

It can be very tricky. Gernan mortars (at least) have a Section HQ and a Platoon HQ. I thought that if you leave the Section HQ with the mortars that you could send the Platoon HQ anywhere to spot. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. Then I found if I have (any) vehicle near the mortars with a radio that seems to help make the system work.

Yes, this needs to be addressed by Battlefront, IMO. The section HQ should not have to be within shouting distance of the mortars if the platoon HQ already is. The platoon HQ is the one that has the radio and therefore should be the one that matters. I was very frustrated until I figured this out - and I probably never would have figured it out if it weren't for a old forum post that I barely remembered reading months ago about this very same issue.

[WynnterGreen]

I thought they'd claimed to have fixed this one.

Not sure about Normandy, but I've got it happening in a Fortress Italy 2.0 PBEM at the moment.

[bairdlander]

The confusion was having an infantry section,able to see the target,withen shout distance of his platton hq,seems the infantry section should be able to shout to platoon hq (who has a radio) to tell the mortors to fire.I thought the infantry could tell the hq and get mortor strike.

[Brindlewolf]

Only HQs or FOs can call in arty bud and only if they have LOS.

[Michael Emrys]

The confusion was having an infantry section,able to see the target,withen shout distance of his platton hq,seems the infantry section should be able to shout to platoon hq (who has a radio) to tell the mortors to fire.I thought the infantry could tell the hq and get mortor strike.

Just doesn't work that way and almost never did in real life either. The guy with the radio had to be the guy with eyes on the target, or at least in the same team.

Michael