A thought for the future

[Sublime]

As interesting as a confrontation between the Western Allies and the USSR in 1945-1946 may be to most of us, I still prefer a mod in which the war against Germany is dragging on into 1946, with a whole new series of vehicles and infantry weapons turning up on both sides, like the German E-series, Panther II etc. I recall someone (representing BF) mentioning the possibility for such a mod.

What German infantry? Even younger Hitler Youth, coupled with older men? Maybe the famed undefeatable tank with the 12 landsers standing on the engine deck, shoveling wood into it's steam engine?

Would be cool though, if nothing else it'd open the way for West vs East fighting as well.

What new German tanks were slated for 46? I know the Centurion and some US armor like Pershings didnt see as much combat as they would have. (Centurion not at all AFAIK Pershing somewhat)

[mjkerner]

would be interesting to get a nuke in a QB playing the allies

No need, as long as you have at least one disabled tank's crew roaming around with pistols!

[thejetset]

No need, as long as you have at least one disabled tank's crew roaming around with pistols!

LOL! Too funny!! ... but so correct. In a recent PBEM battle, I managed to KO a Sherman with an AT grenade ... only to have the tank crew that bailed out kill about 8 of my guys in the nearby vicinity! ... I would not want to be in a drunken brawl in Paris back in '44 with a bailed out tank crew!!

[Michael Emrys]

Back in the day a good bump of the table also could end a war game without an arson arrest.

Or having the family cat jump up on the table. Weeks of work lost!

:eek::mad:

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

LOL! Too funny!! ... but so correct. In a recent PBEM battle, I managed to KO a Sherman with an AT grenade ... only to have the tank crew that bailed out kill about 8 of my guys in the nearby vicinity! ... I would not want to be in a drunken brawl in Paris back in '44 with a bailed out tank crew!!

I've never had this happen, but have read about it here countless times. Has anyone ever suggested having the vehicle crew motivation drop a couple of levels when they are dismounted? Surely that would put an end to some of the excesses.

Michael

[Aragorn2002]

What German infantry? Even younger Hitler Youth, coupled with older men? Maybe the famed undefeatable tank with the 12 landsers standing on the engine deck, shoveling wood into it's steam engine?

Would be cool though, if nothing else it'd open the way for West vs East fighting as well.

What new German tanks were slated for 46? I know the Centurion and some US armor like Pershings didnt see as much combat as they would have. (Centurion not at all AFAIK Pershing somewhat)

First of all it would take us to the realms of fantasy and need a lot of rational and thorough research. But the Germans were experimenting with a whole new series of tanks and assault guns, mainly known as the E-series. What I do NOT want is tanks of 1000 tons, SF science and that sort of nonsense. But a whole new series of improved Hetzers, Jagdpanzer, Panthers etc, with night vision and improved guns. German infantry with new AT weapons like the Rottkäpchen-guided missilesystem and their platoons mainly equipped with Sturmgewehre and MG 42s (how about that for firepower), better Flakpanzer etc. etc.

Same for Western Allies and Russians. All this must have a more or less 'acceptable' background, so a good story is a must. Personally I like the books of Peter Tsouras on fictional (what if) historical events. A lot will depend on a good story to make it believable. In one of his books he desribes a failed invasion in the West, after which the whole remaining force of the German armed forces are moved to Eastern Germany and Poland to stop the Red army. Whether that would have been possible is irrelevant, it just gives a great atmosphere.

As far as the availability of German infantry is concerned, I don't think it was the lack of men that made the Germans lose the war, more the way they used them, scattering them all over the place. But it sure would be interesting to have elite veteran units and well equipped green Volksturm or even partisans.

BF has showed us it can make even 'unlikely' scenarios acceptable (Syria for example) and I'm sure they would be able to make a great game, without turning it into a cheap fantasy.

Not to everybody's taste, but I would like to see something along these lines. And like you said, it would open the way for West vs East fighting as well. Even a combination of the two would be possible.

[Sublime]

A combo would be interesting as well. A 3 way war.

I had forgotten about the German IR equipment they were coming out with.

Speaking of the AT rocket you mentioned - you ever hear about the guided missiles they launched from planes? I'd never really heard much about them being used in combat - apparently they sank a troop transport full of GIs with one though..

[sburke]

Just finished 6 months in 1945.

http://www.amazon.com/Six-Months-1945-Churchill-Truman--/dp/030727165X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1359725266&sr=8-1&keywords=6+months+in+1945

Very interesting read. The common conception (or mis conception) of how well US and Soviet troops got along at the end of the war is illuminating. The inital meetings were lively but relations deteriorated quickly. Shootings by US military of Soviet soldiers became a somewhat frequent occurence as the Soviets were very very aggressive within US army areas of influence in Berlin, theft of equipment, abuse of the population etc. It took very very little time before US army personnel began to perceive the Russians as an enemy. Also instructive to see relations betweent Roosevelt (and later Truman) with Stalin and Churchill. The fostered persona that Stalin worked on is also fascinating. Outstanding read of a period I previously had only a general understanding of.

[YankeeDog]

As far as the availability of German infantry is concerned, I don't think it was the lack of men that made the Germans lose the war, more the way they used them, scattering them all over the place. But it sure would be interesting to have elite veteran units and well equipped green Volksturm or even partisans.

This may be true in a general sense, but the fact of the matter is that by March 1945, Germany was drafting 14 year-old boys and 60 year-old men. They were literally scraping the bottom of the barrel and there were very few German men left to fight.

Also debatable how many of the new German weapons technologies and designs could have been brought into combat quickly -- even assuming the weapons designs were complete and ready for production (and many were not), the factories and infrastructure to produce them were completely wrecked. It would of taken considerable time to ramp up production of any new munitions or weapons systems.

Worth noting that the Soviets weren't completely immune to manpower issues, either. Their losses in the war were simply staggering and contrary to common belief, their ability to sustain losses was not absolutely unlimited. Any significant continued conflict into 1946 would have put a strain on Soviet manpower reserves.

[Michael Emrys]

Worth nothing that the Soviets weren't completely immune to manpower issues, either. Their losses in the war were simply staggering and contrary to common belief, their ability to sustain losses was not absolutely unlimited. Any significant continued conflict into 1946 would have put a strain on Soviet manpower reserves.

Very, very true and Stalin knew it. He may have bluffed tough (everybody was bluffing tough after the war), but he knew that his country didn't need a new war. It needed time and peace to recover from the last one.

Michael

[Sgt Joch]

I've never had this happen, but have read about it here countless times. Has anyone ever suggested having the vehicle crew motivation drop a couple of levels when they are dismounted? Surely that would put an end to some of the excesses.

Michael

soon....

[Michael Emrys]

soon....

:cool:

Michael

[LukeFF]

Speaking of the AT rocket you mentioned - you ever hear about the guided missiles they launched from planes? I'd never really heard much about them being used in combat - apparently they sank a troop transport full of GIs with one though..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_battleship_Roma_(1940))

[winkelried]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_battleship_Roma_(1940))

not the same weapon Roma was sunk by a "Fritz X" which was basically a radio guided ballistic bomb and HMT Rohna was sunk by a Henschel Hs 293 which was a truly radio guided glide bomb where the launching airplane didn t need to overfly the target.

[Mic2Bec]

How much interest would there be in a campaign (after BF have released the first Eastern front game) continuing the war - Alles vs Soviet Union in 1945-6?

Wasn't this done by proxy in Korea ? I rather have a Korea war game than that.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I suspect a Korean War CM would be like CMFI, except one side would always have to be the Italians.

[Sublime]

Id disagree. The NKPA really gave the US and ROK troops a run for their money in the early summer of 50, and later with the Chinese intervention it was an absolute disaster for the UN troops. The campaign remained fluid until mid 51, at which point it was more similar to WW1 with raiding parties and more local attacks. Still even the later battles would fit well with CM.

But no, it wasnt done by proxy in Korea. A WW3 45/46 scenario would be way more intense, and more varieties of units. There'd be no comparison in the struggles in the air, land and sea to Korea.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I have been under the impression that the success NK and China had was more due to strategic surprise. They certainly seem to have suffered disproportionately high loses. But I don't know much about their level of training and equipment quality, so if they were roughly on par with their Western counterparts at the tactical level that would make a Korean game more interesting to me.

[Michael Emrys]

Wasn't this done by proxy in Korea ? I rather have a Korea war game than that.

+1.

Michael

[Mic2Bec]

I have been under the impression that the success NK and China had was more due to strategic surprise. They certainly seem to have suffered disproportionately high loses. But I don't know much about their level of training and equipment quality, so if they were roughly on par with their Western counterparts at the tactical level that would make a Korean game more interesting to me.

discipline was good, at least :

"UN aerial reconnaissance had difficulty sighting PVA units in daytime, because their march and bivouac discipline minimized aerial detection.[147] The PVA marched "dark-to-dark" (19:00–03:00), and aerial camouflage (concealing soldiers, pack animals, and equipment) was deployed by 05:30. Meanwhile, daylight advance parties scouted for the next bivouac site. During daylight activity or marching, soldiers were to remain motionless if an aircraft appeared, until it flew away;[147] PVA officers were under order to shoot security violators. Such battlefield discipline allowed a three-division army to march the 286 miles (460 km) from An-tung, Manchuria to the combat zone in some 19 days. Another division night-marched a circuitous mountain route, averaging 18 miles (29 km) daily for 18 days.[35]"

[Vanir Ausf B]

Yes. I did a little reading last night. The ability of the Chinese to operate at night was impressive, and I get the impression that they were fairly well trained and very disciplined.

OTOH, they had horrible logistical problems. They were chronically short of everything. Food, clothing, bullets, everything except men.

[Sublime]

Well the UN enountered armor sometimes. Not nearly as often as say WW2. The Chinese seemed to be heavily armed with automatics, British and US accounts stress that.

As noted previously, they were masters of concealing movements. They'd send company sized groups of men to set the brush alight, and would fire a single shot into the air when a plane was near and everyone would freeze. Every man also was supposed to carry a shrub or leaves with him as well.

For lack of radios, they used whistles at the platoon level and bugles at the company level. The lack of effective C&C meant that often even the lowest soldiers were briefed on the situation, attack plans, etc. Things privates wouldn't know in a Western Army. This allowed great intel to be reaped, but the Chinese felt it necessary so troops would react better and know what to do.

Most attacks were at night, human wave style, though daytime attacks weren't unheard of. Besides PPSH41's and captured US equipment, it was mostly Soviet stock and mostly mortars, etc. They also used satchel charges and pole charges to KO tanks, but seemed heavily vulnerable to armor. However the terrain much favored infantry and they exploited this. They also often exploited Korean civilians and refugees, and would intermingle with civilians to attack and infiltrate.