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I was always under the impression that in real life the Axis used red tracers as well as the Western Allies. However in reading Atkinson's excellent 'An Army at Dawn' I've noticed several references to green Axis incoming cannon and MG fire.

Mentions of green fire coming from tanks MG muzzles - very explicit mentions during the battles around Kasserine of how 88 shells appeared as a glowing green fireballs that raised a curtain of dust behind (from the vacuum in the shell's wake)- and later in the campaign near the end I just noticed an explicit reference finally to green MG tracers from incoming German fire.

Just curious?

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The range finding thing is interesting. ISTR the Russian troops in CM:A having green tracers, so maybe it's not impossible.

And Steiner - you gotta work on your English man - once again your comment, probably a joke, makes no sense.

I still cringe thinking of one of your first posts I saw ' It cost me laugh to think of USA army in Stalingrad'

Made me cringe because the bad english, the insult to my country's military doesn't bother me, I doubt very much the US military would find itself in a position swearing oaths to madmen/dictators and subsequently getting stuck in colossal traps like the 6th Army, unable to pull out because said madman. Oh and also the US if it had, probably would have just kept the kessel alive with supplies. See Bastogne/Berlin Airlift/Khe Sanh, etc. etc. Military prowess is not determined by which side can suffer more than the other. That doesn't prove much. As Patton was fond of saying in reference to you Germans "It's not about dying for your country, it's making the other son-of-a-bitch die for his!"

Glad to get that off my chest after all these years. Every time I see you post it reminds me of that idiotic comment you made in 2003.

Also perhaps the green tracer thing is an author error. I noticed later in the same book he mentions the introduction of US VT fuses for artillery with radar sensors to detonate them above ground. Fair 'nuff, it's true they were introduced in WW2, but late in 1944, not 42/early 43 in the battles for Tunis. I'm shocked actually, he's a well known author, and really did a good job with the book, it's surprising such large errors were made...

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I recall after modding my CMBB game that i gave the Germans one color for tracer rounds and the Russians another. That would be nice to be able to do in CMx2 games. Perhaps it is and i just am not aware?

You are correct with cmx1. I did that set up as well prefering more distinct color tracers between axix and allied. This option is not available as both sides share the same file in Cmx2. It would be cool if BF added another tracer file to make this possible again.

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Also perhaps the green tracer thing is an author error. I noticed later in the same book he mentions the introduction of US VT fuses for artillery with radar sensors to detonate them above ground. Fair 'nuff, it's true they were introduced in WW2, but late in 1944, not 42/early 43 in the battles for Tunis. I'm shocked actually, he's a well known author, and really did a good job with the book, it's surprising such large errors were made...

Who? ....?

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Rick Atkinson. An Army At Dawn

And yes, I'm completely serious. I've watched Steiner make neo nazi comments, and anti american comments for years now. He irks me, and it irks me. It smacks of some teenaged German boy sitting in his basement wishing the Nazi's won WW2. With ancestors of mine KIA in Europe in WW2, that annoys. His comments and glee at US failure and misfortune in Iraq annoy too, 2 friends I grew up with died there.

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And Steiner - you gotta work on your English man - once again your comment, probably a joke, makes no sense.

I still cringe thinking of one of your first posts I saw ' It cost me laugh to think of USA army in Stalingrad'

Made me cringe because the bad english, the insult to my country's military doesn't bother me, I doubt very much the US military would find itself in a position swearing oaths to madmen/dictators and subsequently getting stuck in colossal traps like the 6th Army, unable to pull out because said madman. Oh and also the US if it had, probably would have just kept the kessel alive with supplies. ......

......

Glad to get that off my chest after all these years. Every time I see you post it reminds me of that idiotic comment you made in 2003.

ummm .... ok ..... okokok .... ahhh .... you don't work in the US Post Office by any chance do you? .... I mean ... not that it's a big deal or anything! ..... or that myself or anyone else should really be worried or anything .... right?? ... but 2003?? ... really?

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I was digging thru old posts =P

I apologize for nothing, now excuse me while I don my tin hat.

:)

But I know what you mean about fanatical governments pushing people to fanatical ends .... with results like the hellish Eastern Front. It is no offence to Russian's, German's or Japanese people. It's just a lesson in history that we hope never has to be repeated. (Except in Combat Mission video games of course!!)

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Exactly. Honestly when I was typing that I thought who fu*ked up it is that my favorite thing besides my 2 year old son is reading about war history or playing wargames. More so because I only want things that really happened, unless it's like a QB, which is at least plausible. It's all people's suffering and misery, and something I'm glad to have never endured.

The fanatical supermen myths and ideas just really annoy me I guess, maybe because they seem to be lingering echoes of things the actual people/regimes thought up, whether Nazi, Soviet, or otherwise. It annoys me just as much how the average American's idea of WW2 is Pearl Harbor, DDay, mushroom cloud, or that they think we kicked butt the entire time with no problems, alone.

Atkinson's book is great, (An Army at Dawn) and it's the first of three. I can't wait for the second. (to come to the library, it's been written) Still, there were some errors, though relatively minor to 'normal' people, that seemed to glow off the page while I read, dragging my eyes back to them. Specifically I'm thinking of the paragraph reference to US VT shells being introduced, mind you apparently in February 1943.

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Atkinson's book is great, (An Army at Dawn) and it's the first of three. I can't wait for the second. (to come to the library, it's been written)

The second book (The Day of Battle) came out over four years ago. The third (The Guns at Last Light) is due out in May.

The thing about VT fuses is puzzling. One has to remember that he is not an academic historian but a journalist with an interest in history. I think he might have gotten confused with time set fuses, which will airburst over the target if set correctly and all the planets are aligned. We have those in CM already for planned barrages.

Michael

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But weren't they timing the fuses in WW1 even? It's strange he mentions the introduction and I assume someone misremembered or a number got changed somehow. The green tracers thing is prevalent in his first book, I'm interested to see if the second book's accounts mention them as well.

What really struck me was how intense and prolonged the fighting in N Africa was, and I mean post Operation Torch in Algeria/Tunisia. Of course 8th Army got a bloody nose a few times in Eastern Tunisia later in Spring 43 as well. I was also struck by the attempt - it seems - at integrating the armies at a tactical level. I don't know how often this was done later in Western Europe after Overlord but even by division of Army units it seems they separated the units more by nationality. Earlier on they'd through a Brit brigade in with a US arty bttn and a US TD bttn. Crazy mixes like that. These are also the only Western accounts of the Luftwaffe doing tactical air-support I've read about barring 1940 Fall of France stuff, or maybe stuff about Crete. Despite it's awful later war reputation Stuka's, perhaps merely by reputation genuinely terrorized troops, and they were being continously strafed and attacked. Patton famously complained and when Tedder and some of Eisenhower's deputies came had the mixed good fortune of being strafed by 3 FW190s. Tedder wondered aloud how Patton had managed to stage that. Patton later said he'd have pinned medals on the 'sonsuvbitches' if he could have found them.

I was also struck by the near outright hatred between the British and American troops. The Brits started calling the US 'our Italians' and the US commanders complained the whole campaign was to help the British hold on to their Empire. Anyways a great book.

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