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Single player , turn based or real time?


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There is a realtime game that I'd always choose over CMx2 if that was realtime only..It's the only realtime game (except for CC2) I actually enjoy, infact i think it's superb.

Again it's the WEGO aspect that keeps me playing..if it wasn't in game I'd just play the "other East front" game. The other game with it's recent patches has overtaken CMx2 with regards to command and control etc. The complexity of that game and what goes on under the hood is starting to overtake CMx2. It's weak point is for me it's realtime and has no WEGO option yet the game is so good I will play it. Saying that CMx2 WEGO mechanic means it still remains my No1 tactical wargame.

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Bah! The best CM, indeed war-gaming, experience was head to head WEGO over TCP/IP. Alas, that fell by the wayside years ago when BF made some design decisions and it is never coming back.

Actually, it is coming back, albeit without replay.

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It is coming back, but without replay? I didn't know that. But really Mr. B., one might as well compare fine wines with vodka.

It is the replay that enables one to savour the well sprung ambush or to curse one's stupidity at advancing too quickly that actually makes the game. Without being able to savour one's triumphs or learn from one's setbacks we might just as well have a text based game ("Your tank at position L3 has been destroyed") and have done with it.

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Bah! The best CM, indeed war-gaming, experience was head to head WEGO over TCP/IP. Alas, that fell by the wayside years ago when BF made some design decisions and it is never coming back.

I'm not sure I actually see the difference between 'WEGO via TCP/IP' and 'WEGO PBEM via Dropbox with H2HH'.

If you're both at your PC waiting for H2HH to "ping" you with the new turn, maybe even chatting over Teamspeak or Skype, is it any slower than TCP/IP would be ? You're still waiting for the opponent to watch the turn however many times he wants to, and do his orders ?

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I find that one of the items not mentioned in favor of real times realism is the coordination factor. In wego, you can perfectly coordinate. Everything. Precisely on time and with little more than an orders delay.

Actually, the part I bolded, is 180 out from reality. In Realtime, a pause allows me to stop the action at ANY MOMENT I CHOOSE and INSERT A NEW ORDER. E.g., I order a team to enter a house. The enemy is in there. I can pause the game, give the team a pause for 15 seconds, a Target Brief into the building (15 seconds of firing), then enter. Meanwhile, I can give overwatch elements a NEW target light command to suppress that building. Unpause the game. Watch an incredibly well coordinated entry take place.

With Wego you cannot do any of that. You've got to plan ahead and then HOPE your orders were sufficient to take into account any eventualities. Wego forces you to be a bystander except for specific 1 minute intervals.

Realtime allows you to intervene with every unit at every moment.

So, I disagree with your statement that wego allows greater coordination than does realtime.

Ken

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I'm not sure I actually see the difference between 'WEGO via TCP/IP' and 'WEGO PBEM via Dropbox with H2HH'.

Well, WEGO via TCP/IP would be faster because it would eliminate the need to load and save the turn. I realize that you would not get all that time back because information does need to be packaged and sent to the other machine. But there is no way it would take as long to send the needed information as fully saving everything, shutting down then reloading the entire map to begin the next turn.

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I'm not sure I actually see the difference between 'WEGO via TCP/IP' and 'WEGO PBEM via Dropbox with H2HH'.

...

Did you ever play WEGO over TCP/IP? If you did I am sure your would appreciate the difference between that and PBEM (via drop box or actual email). However, we must not look backwards. The past is past and it ain't ever coming back. I hope BF made a mint out of attracting the real time crowd.

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Well, WEGO via TCP/IP would be faster because it would eliminate the need to load and save the turn. I realize that you would not get all that time back because information does need to be packaged and sent to the other machine. But there is no way it would take as long to send the needed information as fully saving everything, shutting down then reloading the entire map to begin the next turn.

Ok, fair enough, although it's not a lot of time - loading even a 12000 point battle on your big map is only 2 minutes - which can be seen as valuable taunting time :)

Should have mentioned in this thread that I am a WEGO only player.

I come from a miniatures wargaming background, so I like the time to think and plan and since WEGO eliminated all that IGOUGO gaminess, it won me over instantly.

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Ok, fair enough, although it's not a lot of time - loading even a 12000 point battle on your big map is only 2 minutes - which can be seen as valuable taunting time :)

That sucker takes longer on my machine - smaller battles would probably not cause such a big problem

Should have mentioned in this thread that I am a WEGO only player.

I come from a miniatures wargaming background, so I like the time to think and plan and since WEGO eliminated all that IGOUGO gaminess, it won me over instantly.

Same here. What an amazing difference. If I still had my miniatures I would probably have totally abandoned them once I started playing this game.

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Not only did CM stop any more miniatures play, but all my cardboard tactical gaming as well. There are many xnt cardboard wargames out there with great graphics. But, if you can play on a computer vs a good AI, as in the CM series, there seems no point.

I still buy the year's best cardboard wargames from time to time, but am now merely a "collector". That's the reason I value each of the CM1 games as worth around $800 (for all the money saved from not buying other computer or cardboard games for 10+ years). It's been smart for BF to "break up" the games into many small modules as now a CM1 equivalent scope CM2 game "series" will cost many hundreds of dollars. However, the regular need to update the game(s) AND mods is frustrating.

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Realtime allows you to intervene with every unit at every moment.

Not true in practice. WeGo allows to rewind back in time and take care of the other task force you've neglected for last minute.

With realtime you can't rewind and check where from they were attacked and react according to it.

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WeGo everytime.

With all the complexities in the system, I find the only way I can get a handle on what is happening and why, is to take my time plotting my actions and then analysing the results in replay. My poor old brainbox couldn't cope with doing that in RT.

CM probably commands 90% of my overall gaming time, so it is important for me to get the most out of it, both by understanding how it works and by enjoying watching how the action unfolds, in detail. That does eat up time, however and I suppose if you are short of it, or play many other games, RT might be an option.

If RT had some sort of rewind facility, then it might become a possibility, at least for very small battles but, until then, it is WeGo all the way.

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Both.

From CMSF RT only, except for PBEM's of course. Since starting to play CM:BN, because the more complicated terrain and larger forces WEGO is gaining with me. For smaller battles I still prefer RT though.

Besides, in RT I've seen plenty of things that will never happen in WEGO, simply because you miss info which leads to chaotic, hilarious and realistic scenario's. Like a platoon of Shermans overrunning your recon force, who take heavy casulaties but take out some Shermans in heroic fashion just before the Panther reinforcements show up.

In WEGO that Sherman platoon will never overrun my recon positions since the recon will get out of dodge in time. However, I do get to play back my wonderfully orchestrated Panther counter attack taking out the Sherman platoon as many times as I want.

Like most things in life, both have pro's and con's; personal taste/sentiment is the most important factor in a decision.

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Actually, the part I bolded, is 180 out from reality. In Realtime, a pause allows me to stop the action at ANY MOMENT I CHOOSE and INSERT A NEW ORDER. E.g., I order a team to enter a house. The enemy is in there. I can pause the game, give the team a pause for 15 seconds, a Target Brief into the building (15 seconds of firing), then enter. Meanwhile, I can give overwatch elements a NEW target light command to suppress that building. Unpause the game. Watch an incredibly well coordinated entry take place.

With Wego you cannot do any of that. You've got to plan ahead and then HOPE your orders were sufficient to take into account any eventualities. Wego forces you to be a bystander except for specific 1 minute intervals.

Realtime allows you to intervene with every unit at every moment.

So, I disagree with your statement that wego allows greater coordination than does realtime.

Ken

While true, this is only HALF the story.

Realtime allows you to intervene every unit at every moment. But you don't have enough eyes to see every unit every moment, you can't really intervene everywhere in a meaningful way (for which you would need the info).

WEGO allows you to view every unit at every moment (many times). But you only have once a minute to intervene, so you can intervene every unit in a meaningful way albeit only at 1 minute intervals.

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Besides, in RT I've seen plenty of things that will never happen in WEGO, simply because you miss info which leads to chaotic, hilarious and realistic scenario's. Like a platoon of Shermans overrunning your recon force, who take heavy casulaties but take out some Shermans in heroic fashion just before the Panther reinforcements show up.

In WEGO that Sherman platoon will never overrun my recon positions since the recon will get out of dodge in time. However, I do get to play back my wonderfully orchestrated Panther counter attack taking out the Sherman platoon as many times as I want.

Like most things in life, both have pro's and con's; personal taste/sentiment is the most important factor in a decision.

I have seen plenty of things like that in WeGo, but I agree with both this statement and your next. It is all a matter of preference. Both have advantages and disadvantages. Replay though is the only way to get screenshots, and without those we think the reports back to higher HQs about that Sherman atttack were just an excuse to leave your positions w/o permission. See the SS officer out the door on the right. Leave your weapons.

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I should add I rarely use the pause feature in RT, as I tend to find that defies the point of having to prioritize your attention and choose where to exert command influence. I generally only use it where the system is inadequate - trying to tell a convoy of vehicles to roll down the road without crashing into each others tails for example.

I can see how if you used it liberally it would lead to the perfect orders always scenario, complete with ability to review everything.

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I would think that people starting out playing RT (ab)use the Pause button far too frequently. However, with a bit of experience, you stop using it almost altogether. That's how I play the game. A 45 minute scenario takes under an hour to play after set-up.

I guess RT v WEGO will always be an issue. It's like the 'cats make better pets than dogs' debate. There are cat people and dog people and they both find ways to justify their preference and in a small number of cases, belittling the other for their preference as well.

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I prefer WeGo. In RT there is just too much chaos and i also cant review cool stuff as often as i want to. I find that in RT you miss all the awesome deatils because ou are constantly managing your forces and dont have the time to take a closer look at what is happening.

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I have been in the mood lately for some RT so I set up a quick game against the AI, and had a BLAST! I do LOVE a high body count! I don’t think I have ever seen SO many bodies piled up in one place before so I had to take a shot, and share this beautiful sight. In all fairness though, the AI really does not have much “I”. They advanced right into a perfect kill zone I set up backed by two 50cal MGs. I counted 48 dead in view here with a few just outside camera.

CMNormandy2013-05-2714-25-18-14.jpg

One really can have some fun in RT, and it really is a different experience than WEGO. The key to being able to cope with it, and enjoy it is to assume the proper mindset. Try to not get caught up in every micro detail, and concentrate on the whole. Also, creating a game on the tiny, or small side makes managing easier. One also needs to adapt how they control the game for optimal results. In RT the indefinite pause order becomes one of your best tools, and I suggest using when ever applicable. ( I am not refering to pausing the game)

If anyone ever wants to give it a try HvH for the first time I suggest a tiny/small size with infantry only. The pace, and size are easiest to manage. That said hit me up if anyone wants to have a fun HvH meeting engagement if you see me on the forum. If we both have an hour to spare we will do a tiny/small infantry/mech inf only ME with random map selection, and computer generated force for quick start up. The computer actually puts together good forces so it should be well balanced. Win or lose it is all about fun, and if you are new to it I will help you with good tips.

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