Camo for SS units

[noob]

I created a platoon of SS motorised troops, and set the Appearance to Full Camo, however every 11 man squad had at least 4 to 5 men wearing plain grey jackets, is this intentional, or some sort of bug ?

[Fernando]

Yes, it is intentional.

[noob]

Yes, it is intentional.

Is it a reflection of a shortage of camo at that point in time, given that the Axis forces were scraping the bottom of the barrel as far as equipment is concerned, as was the case with vehicles when the SS advanced to Carentan, or was it standard to have some without camo, irrespective of the supply situation ?

[Fernando]

At that point in the war Germans were scraping out every available resource. For example Waffen-SS made extensive use of Italian wool cloth so it became a sort of unofficial standard Feldgrau shade for SS wool uniforms made during the last year of the war.

A new pea-pattern/dot pattern uniform was introduced after some tests in early 1944. Smocks ceased to be produced and all remaining camo cloth stocks were used autum-side out for the new gartment. No helmet covers were ever made in dot-pattern camo nor were delivered with the new dot-pattern uniform so old ones were reused and the stocks of old smocks were also issued until exhaustion. Some Waffen-SS units made use of Italian camo cloth captured in Italy (LASSAH was deployed in North Italy for a time) then carried them to new units (i.e. many 12.SS cadres were LASSAH veterans).

Lat but not least. Please, remember the M44 uniform was made in linen. It was not really warm, so it you was in the open, in a rainy day in Normandy with temperature droping , you may feel more confortable in a wool Feldbluse.

In short, there was chaos and general lack of uniformity regarding uniforms among Waffen-SS units.

We try to reflect the norm regarding uniforms, but some of that chaos at the same time. That's the reason there are no M44 camo uniforms in oak pattern (all of them are dot-pattern) because they were fairly rare, no privately purchase Feldblusen in Italian camo (AFAIK it was mostly used for pants and tank crew uniforms and combis) but there is some mix of uniforms on the Waffen-SS units.

[Fernando]

Obviously I wanted to say LSSAH

[Vanir Ausf B]

LASSAH rolls off the tongue more smoothly.

LASSAH!

[baron Jacquinot]

In my mod I combine few types of camo

Italian camo, dott44, oak b tunics and smocks, plane tree 1,2 3,4

[baron Jacquinot]

[Frankster65]

Damn but I love the detail and care that goes into this gem of a game!

[Faelwolf]

Also don't forget that the USAAF and the RAF were doing a fine job of making it very difficult to move supplies and get them to the front lines. This reduced availability of already limited stocks even further.

Supply lines were so disrupted by late '44 that civilian populations were beginning to starve in some areas, as much of what was left of the infrastructure was diverted to military use. Even in early '44 it was a serious problem, and was part of the reason the construction of fortifications (and placing of some of the large guns) was delayed along the Normandy coast.

Manufacturing was actually far less interrupted, as Albert Speer was brilliant in his adaptation to the situation, and a lot of production actually went up over the course of the war. But it doesn't do much good to make stockpiles of items when you have no way to get them to where they will do the job

Part of the Normandy campaign that often goes unmentioned was a concentrated bombing of every train depot, known storage facility, and major crossroad leading into the Normandy area. Allied ground attack aircraft had a field day attacking supply columns and trains, and even quite a few fighter aircraft got into the act. The Germans were quickly reduced to moving supplies only at night or periods of bad weather, in smaller deployments. This would have been even more effective if we'd had been less protective of bridges! (The theory was that blowing the bridges would slow our advance, my theory is we had bailey bridges, and some darned good combat engineers, blow the d***ed things up!)

In the midst of all this, that the Germans would even bother with changing camo patterns with all that it would entail in manufacturing and distribution has been a curiosity with me. A reflection of bureaucracy at work somewhere?

[Fernando]

In the midst of all this, that the Germans would even bother with changing camo patterns with all that it would entail in manufacturing and distribution has been a curiosity with me. A reflection of bureaucracy at work somewhere?

I think it was just the opposite. Some cammo patterns were just experimentations, but they also looked for simplification, reduced costs and standarization.

1. Early plane tree patterns were manually screened while blurred and oak pattern were machine rolled so the later ones were easier and faster to do.

2. Dot-pattern was a general camouflage which was designed to work in all seasons so no need for two camo versions ("summer" and "fall"). That was an obvious simplification because just one side had to be printed rather than both.

3. Leibermuster was a general camo for ALL German branches, the whole Wehrmacht and the Waffen-SS. That was an huge simplification. No need for separate cammos for LW, Heer and Waffen-SS.

The Waffen-SS resources were stretched thin due to supply shortages in 1944, that's true, but don't forget they were in full expansion in 1943-44, so the demand for more uniforms and equipment increased a lot.

[Lanzfeld]

Fernando,

Your knowledge of all things uniform is very impressive sir!

I am glad you are on these boards.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I'm glad he works for BFC

[winkelried]

I think it was just the opposite. Some cammo patterns were just experimentations, but they also looked for simplification, reduced costs and standarization.

3. Leibermuster was a general camo for ALL German branches, the whole Wehrmacht and the Waffen-SS. That was an huge simplification. No need for separate cammos for LW, Heer and Waffen-SS.

There was certainly an idea of standardization. The Leibermuster should substitute all other camos, but the main driver behind the development of the Leibermuster was to improve the camo against infrared devices. The Germans were pretty advanced in the development of IR-scopes etc, so they suspected the Allies to come up with a similar technology and started to develop the Leibermuster pattern.

Since production of the Leibermuster started only in spring 1945 it seems that only basic uniform parts (tunics and pants) were issued to some Heer units based in Czechoslovakia.

[Fernando]

There was certainly an idea of standardization. The Leibermuster should substitute all other camos, but the main driver behind the development of the Leibermuster was to improve the camo against infrared devices. The Germans were pretty advanced in the development of IR-scopes etc, so they suspected the Allies to come up with a similar technology and started to develop the Leibermuster pattern.

That was not the main driver but just one of the main reasons. The other one was that camo patterns and colors blend together at relatively short distances lessening the camouflage effectiveness. The SS developing team hoped the new pattern would alleviate that blending tendence in camouflage at distances. The Heer was also aware of the blending problem, which was particularly noticeable with the army's Water pattern, so it also accepted the new Liebermuster.

Since production of the Leibermuster started only in spring 1945 it seems that only basic uniform parts (tunics and pants) were issued to some Heer units based in Czechoslovakia.

The info about Liebermuster was delivered to printing factories in January 1945. It seems very few units got that uniform. There are reports about some small SS units in the Baltic wearing uniforms in Liebermuster but evidence remains sketchy and unsubstantiated.

[Stagler]

All these historical arguements are irrelevant.

The "Standard" selection and "Full Camo" selection produce the same result when selected. The only different result is if you select "No Camo", where the troops have feldgrau uniforms but camouflaged helmets.

The feature or texture paths are broken.

This needs to be fixed in a patch.

[Fernando]

All these historical arguements are irrelevant.

The "Standard" selection and "Full Camo" selection produce the same result when selected. The only different result is if you select "No Camo", where the troops have feldgrau uniforms but camouflaged helmets.

The feature or texture paths are broken.

This needs to be fixed in a patch.

Please, open the editor, buy an SS-PzGr battalion and look at it under "standard" and "full camo". Then rewrite your message. Please, don't forget to delete "same result when selected", "broken", "fixed" and "patch".

Reading about the Waffen-SS camos in order to be able to tell them apart one from another would help a lot as well.

(Note: Don't forget to select the unit whose appearance you want to change after buying it. If you doesn't select it then the appearance doesn't change even if you select a new appearance)

[winkelried]

The info about Liebermuster was delivered to printing factories in January 1945. It seems very few units got that uniform. There are reports about some small SS units in the Baltic wearing uniforms in Liebermuster but evidence remains sketchy and unsubstantiated.

you mean in the Kurland cauldron/bridgehead (depending of the point of view ;-) )?

btw its Leibermuster - seems the name comes from an engineer called Hellmut Leiber ... Leibermuster would mean body pattern if translated literally - Liebermuster would mean "preferrably patterned" - is this correct Fernando?

[Fernando]

Yes, you are right. It is Leibermuster indeed. It is a word that I don't write often because it was a rare camo and please, don't forget I don't command German.

It seems they were worn by some retreating SS units near Riga. There was one example in a Riga museum till 1992 and some examples surfaced in Moscow

[winkelried]

It seems they were worn by some retreating SS units near Riga. There was one example in a Riga museum till 1992 and some examples surfaced in Moscow

whatever near Riga means. AFAIK the German lines were already pushed quite a bit West of Riga when the Leibermuster appeared. Are you sure the uniforms are originals? Or not from the Czechoslovak bunch?

[Faelwolf]

Another old curiosity laid to rest. Thanks Fernando!

[Fernando]

whatever near Riga means. AFAIK the German lines were already pushed quite a bit West of Riga when the Leibermuster appeared. Are you sure the uniforms are originals? Or not from the Czechoslovak bunch?

My info comes from

Beaver, M.D. & Borsarello, J.F., Camouflage Uniforms of the Waffen-SS. A Photographic Reference, Schiffer Military History, 1995.

They say:

The printing factories did not receive information on this new pattern until 15 January 1945. By the war's end it is doubtful if more than a few small units were equiped in this pattern. There are reports of SS foreign volunteers in the Baltic regions wearing them. Allegedly, retreating troops in the vicinity of Riga, Latvia were dressed in the gartments. Withouth tangible proofs, however, evidence regarding the usage of Leibermuster suits remain sketchy and unsubstantiated. One example existed in the Riga museum until 1992. Additionally, whithin the last decade, eight legitimate examples of M-45 pattern Leiber jacket were discovered in Moscow. These surviving uniforms verify production and limited issue, but at what level remains uncertain.

Uniforms manufacturated in this rare printing are known only by surviving examples and U.S. army intelligence reports...

The reference used by the authors is:

Richardson, F.S., QMC Consultant, Camouflage Fabrics both Plain and Printed for Military Use by the German SS and German Army, 20 July 1945

And a personal interview with historian George Petersen (he said there is a report about the 4-pocket HBT camouflage drill pattern in Leibermuster)

[Stagler]

"full camo" would suggest that all the units wear full camouflaged uniforms. If you went to a shop and ordered Item A, and you got Item B instead, would you not be disappointed in the shop and ask for a refund or a fix? Maybe you battlefront staff should change the name from "full camo" to something else, because you certainly dont get "full camo" units with that selection.

[ASL Veteran]

"full camo" would suggest that all the units wear full camouflaged uniforms. If you went to a shop and ordered Item A, and you got Item B instead, would you not be disappointed in the shop and ask for a refund or a fix? Maybe you battlefront staff should change the name from "full camo" to something else, because you certainly dont get "full camo" units with that selection.

Full Camo would suggest that I was going to be getting a full can of Camo High Gravity Lager.

http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/881/2789

[Fernando]

"full camo" would suggest that all the units wear full camouflaged uniforms. If you went to a shop and ordered Item A, and you got Item B instead, would you not be disappointed in the shop and ask for a refund or a fix? Maybe you battlefront staff should change the name from "full camo" to something else, because you certainly dont get "full camo" units with that selection.

I am afraid BFC is not writing a dictionary of the English languague, but making a game that reflects WWII tactical combat in a realistic way.

Waffen-SS and Wehrmacht forces were not the same in 1939 than they were later, in 1944. If they were dressed in a mix of uniforms in 1944, then you will get a mix of uniforms.

Every Waffen-SS appearance is just a different mix of uniforms. "Full camo" for Waffen-SS units means ALL soldiers get some dot-pattern garment (pants, jacket or both).