Dear Mr Battlefront...

[Streety]

Did WW2 infantry *really* use formations? Other than, perhaps, 'line abreast'?

In George Forty's "The first victory: General O'Connor's desert triumph Dec 1940-Feb 1941" he tells of one part of the first British counter-attack against the stalled initial Italian invasion of Egypt. Whereby they found some Italian troops had "formed square" (in true Napoleonic style) rather than give up the few miles they had managed to advance towards Cairo. The Italians concerned even had a small artillery piece or anti-tank gun at each corner. Upon seeing this tried and tested defensive tactic (a veritable leaf out of the British military history manual, no less!), the cunning British, rather than charge headlong into the fray (and no doubt remembering Waterloo etc) stood some way off and shot it to bits - with tanks.

As a result, I don't think the square was used again upon a major open battlefield. Shame - but maybe we could have the formation added to CM 3.0?

[Battlefront.com]

Patch to fix things and improve the game already purchased. $0

Upgrade to add features not previously purchased and never promised. $10

Customer who can't see the difference... priceless

I will continue to offer customers advice and alternatives:

1. If you think there is value in the features contained in the Upgrade then you should be willing to pay for it.

2. If you do not think there is value in the features contained in the patch then you should not buy it.

People who say there is value in the Upgrade, yet don't think they should have to pay us for that value, are free to have that opinion. Just as we are free to ignore it.

And the "these are features that should have been in the game in the first place" is a silly argument to even attempt to make. Every consumer of every product could make this argument about anything they ever buy any time from any point in the past to any point in the future. If you don't feel a product has the features you think it must have... don't buy it until it does.

Steve

[Childress]

All I want is line abreast than follow the leader...that will make me happy.

You can do that now, sort of, with multiple waypoints. the troops form up and spread out at each one. Slow, yes, but probably like the real thing- if it commonly happened.

My problem is with :"never mind the infernal din and flying lead, conscripts, re-assume the Arrowhead formation when I tap my baton three times on the leftenant's helmet!"

Edit: I really resent paying for the 'upgrade'.

[Michael Emrys]

Each formation should have some in game tactical benefit and be nationality specific.

To cut down on micromanagement each formation should have a purpose or be considered best practice given a certain set of circumstances and the tac AI will will pick that formation best suited for the situation.

Of course this should also be linked to leadership/C2 so that units with poor leadership or C2 wont necessarily pick the best formation under the circumstances.

This would certainly be desirable, but I expect that getting it to work right is two or three generations of AI development in the future.

Meanwhile, for those of you who feel that this is a real essential, I've been looking at a lot of combat photos lately, and the thing that struck me is how much the time soldiers did advance in files. If they were good, they might spread out some when under fire...but then again, they might not. The lesson here is don't get too depressed when your pixeltruppen don't pick the optimum squad formation. Chances are they didn't in the real war either.

Michael

[Waffen_PL]

OK, I will just reply this and I'll drop it

Oh No....not another one....geeeze

You guys are like sect here lol You accept everything BF and go through Ecstasy when they give you smallest bollocks and even want users to be thankful for their benignity cause they didn't promised to make this game better lol. When someone complain about Battlefront or game itself you say geez another troll. But I have bought this game and I have right to say something. but reading some posts here I think that I should be grateful Battlefront for selling me this game and patches not vice-versa. Very interesting view of customer.

What surprise me the most is not that someone here will pay for patch but fact that almost everyone even believed that this is something more than patch and even praising BF for their grandeur.

Patch to fix things and improve the game already purchased. $0

Upgrade to add features not previously purchased and never promised. $10

Customer who can't see the difference... priceless

This is example of this never promiesd features:

Moveable Waypoints

Ability to assign special uniform types for select units types on a unit by unit basis.

Target Armor Arc Command

Expanded Floating Icon Categories

"Fog of War" Floating Icons

2D Editor Map Overlay

Auto-Assemble Road/Wall/Hedge Tool

Camera Jump to Groups

Target Briefly Command

New Rendering Shaders

Bump and Normal Mapping

Improved Framerates

Pausable Realtime TCP/IP Mode

... and yes some more

Dear Battlefront you are so generous. You didn't have to do this but you did and we are all grateful to you. Maybe we should make a statue or better an altar for BF. In every other game such thing is called patch. You are the only one who claims that patch is an upgrade because you didn't ever promised its contents. LOL

Customers who thinks that patch is so called upgrade... priceless

I will continue to offer customers advice and alternatives:

1. If you think there is value in the features contained in the Upgrade then you should be willing to pay for it.

2. If you do not think there is value in the features contained in the patch then you should not buy it

Steve

Wow, yes I know this. I have said that. Of caurse I don't have to buy it> but I have just bought this game recently and I can't play multiplayer because I have bought an outdated version of game! You got it? See difference between buy it if you want or not and buy it or stop playing it? In other words you are selling an outdated version of this game which is almost useless in multiplayer game! And for this you are expecting my gratefulness. Otherwise piss of and don't buy it if you don't like. It's shame...

And this 10$ is not so small for me. Maybe you guys are mostly in Western Europe or US and but in Eastern Europe with actual exchange rate I could buy Silent Hunter 5 or many other games or 10 bears in price of this patch.

[Doug Williams]

And this 10$ is not so small for me. Maybe you guys are mostly in Western Europe or US and but in Eastern Europe with actual exchange rate I could buy Silent Hunter 5 or many other games or 10 bears in price of this patch.

So move to U.S.A., land of opportunity! We're all rich here. But even here we can't buy 10 bears for $10. Hell, I can't even buy 10 beers (the kind I like anyway) for $10.

[Waffen_PL]

Thnx for that good advice but no thnx.

But even here we can't buy 10 bears for $10

That's why US sucks

We're all rich here

I think it was joke, right?

The price of this patch was the most uniportant thing i have wrote and I don't care how much does it cost. I wrote this only to anticipate arguments like "hey this is only 10 dolars it's one bear, who cares" or something like this. 10 dollars is not equal to everyone and not because I'm poor(neither rich) but because of thing called currency rates which makes this patch cost for me like normal games from markets. But as I said I'm not even angry on this. I'm angry cause I have bought a game which I can't play in multiplayer(at least hard to) and someone is persuading me that patch is an upgrade and I'm stupid or something because i don't see difference between these two

[Streety]

Well, I do have some sympathy with Beelzeboss and others in other CMBN threads who dare to criticise CMBN, for some of the CMBN crowd can (at times) have a rude, intollerant, pack-mentality response to ANY criticism (criticisms which can be sometimes found elsewhere if they read reviews of CM games on other sites). But, Beelzeboss, in response to your earlier post: yes you have the right to criticise, but Battlefront don't have to give you an account to say so on their Forum which (I assume) they pay to maintain and administrate.

CMBN attack-pack droids/trolls should accept that there are several precedents for other games which offer free upgrade-patches - i.e. which don't just fix errors (because the game came out too early) but add new features - others have listed some, and Matrix Games' Panzer Corps v1.11 comes to mind as another example (which came out in the past year ahead of Afrika Corps). However, the Panzer Corps series charge for their Grand Campaign add-ons, which no doubt many would see as unfair.

For Battlefront, like Matrix and every private company, are playing "supply and demand" to make a profit. Games companies manage (massage?) their fan base in different ways to achieve those ends, and adjust their pricing/patching policy and priorities accordingly. Like they say, "if you don't like it, don't buy it", which is why I won't buy CMBN. But the CMBN-pack ought to at least appreciate that these pricing amounts are not insignificant to some people, that some other posters may be just kids and/or who don't fully understand everything, or have not followed every elongated thread that discussed all this before, and thus your responses can seem a bit troll-like. So if you can't constructively criticise, or politely explain or point to a previous thread etc, please don't just post a nasty remark to someone who may be, for all you know, a 10yr old. And one has to feel a bit sorry for someone who bought CMBN more recently, only to find that many potential opponents are already switching up to 2.0.

And I'm still waiting for remaining CM1 AI bug fixes. I wonder how the pro-CMBN attack-trolls will feel when they're left waiting as long as that?

Happy New Year.

[Doug Williams]

Every play an MMO? Many of them want their customers to pay a monthly fee (often $15 or more) and then they have the temerity to charge even more money when they release new content (i.e. "expansions). You don't have to buy the expansion, but then you don't get the new content.

I know this is a difficult concept for many folks with a socialist mentality, but things (goods and services) cost money to produce and maintain.

As for the "attack pack" comment, I think many of us on these forums are just tired of all the whining posts about the $10 upgrade. Don't like it? Don't buy it. If enough of you don't buy it, you can all play multiplayer with each other using version 1.11.

[Zatoichi]

You can play still play multiplayer with an opponent who upgraded to 2.0 as long as your opponent has the gumption to keep the previous version's files backed up - you can have multiple versions of CMBN - I've done this during PBEM matches where a patch has been released before we'd finished the game. So not really hard in my opinion.

I'm far more upset about this dodgy bear trading market - $10 for 10 bears? That's really cruel. Poor bears. How much does a panda go for?

Anyway, name calling (fanboys/attack trolls etc) isn't great and reduces discussions to the lowest common demoninator in my opinion.

There are some people who can get overzealous in the defence of their hobby at times, but in my experience, it's generally a reation to the way criticisms are stated rather than what is being stated.

Anyway, to mangle a famous film line, 'Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is a wargame forum!'

[altipueri]

Is it a bear market for bears?

"Are you gonna talk with a bun-cha communiss?"

EDIT NOTE: I was searching for something from Catch-22 but had to settle for "A Confederacy of Dunces."

[ASL Veteran]

Ah yes, Chief Ten Bears

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Bears

Anyone who has a Steam account will know that every developer who sells product on Steam will sell you far less than what you are getting with the upgrade for far more. They don't call them upgrades though - they just call them DLC (Down Loadable Content). Sometimes they only cost a buck or two, but sometimes the DLC costs much more than that. Many times they are nothing but a few new skins - something that the Upgrade did for every single item in CMBN. Anyone who thinks this isn't the trend for all developers going forward isn't living in reality.

For those who are waiting for CMx1 patches .... wow, just wow. :eek: I bought Master of Orion 3 a while back which was functional but essentially broken in many parts. No patches are ever going to be forthcoming for that. I bought Rome Total War and the Barbarian Invasion expansion pack. As far as I know you still can't assault a large city because when the assaulting troops come off the siege tower they simply fall through the city wall and die as they impact the ground. There are still many players who think Rome Total war is better than sliced bread, yet the Total War team (who has enough monetary resources to have it's own motion capture studio) hasn't done squat to fix that fatal game breaking bug. Because of that bug my Rome Total War game has been collecting dust for a long time because for me it's unplayable.

I'm sure you are all passionate about how much you love CMx1 and you want to keep playing it until the sun goes supernova, but don't you think your expectations for support are just a little over the top? After all, the game is more than ten years old. Honestly, how many ten year old games are still being supported by their developers? Heck, how many two year old games are still being supported? Don't you think you are being even the slightest bit unreasonable? Most gamers are lucky to get more than one patch after a game is released. Sometimes if we were lucky we would get two patches! Steam is helping there a bit though, but with Steam also comes the DLC.

[Waffen_PL]

Streety- thnx for sympathy

I was supposed to finish this but one last time

I'm not socialist mentality. I really do understand that things cost money but you are resistant to the fact that Battlefront is the only one publisher who wants money for patches. If you accept everything then Battlefront will do anything they want and you will be happy anyway(maybe payable demos, payments for mods or something) cause this is capitalism! Even in capitalism(specially in capitalism?) you have to fight for your rights but you prefer to be passive.

But I can understand that you are ready to pay for it,it is your choice but don't claim that this is normal and that my socialist mind don't get something.

And yes, I still can play with 1.11 versions(for now) but there are not so many players and in time there probably will be even less of them cause most of the people who dint't accept such policy did not bought this game and those who bought are happy of such things and accept everything BF will do(and they will do anything they want). Now, I haven't read whole forum before buying the game and that is probably my huge mistake but there wasn't info in description of the game that this version will be incompatible with majority of other games.

That's all and such discussion is pointless. Good bay and happy new year

Edit:

You can play still play multiplayer with an opponent who upgraded to 2.0 as long as your opponent has the gumption to keep the previous version's files backed up - you can have multiple versions of CMBN - I've done this during PBEM matches where a patch has been released before we'd finished the game. So not really hard in my opinion.

Ok, thnx, that is some kind of solution but that is dependent on other player but still it is solution

I'm far more upset about this dodgy bear trading market - $10 for 10 bears? That's really cruel. Poor bears. How much does a panda go for?

hehe sorry my bad. I meant beers ;P Cheers

[Streety]

Oh, ASL Veteran etc, I'm not seriously expecting another CM1 patch! Just making an ironic statement. But it wasn't unrealistic to have expected Battlefront to have further fixed the AI and the random map roads problem back years ago before they stopped supporting CM1.

As to Doug Williams and Zatoichi etc, if you act like a rude attack hound or a troll, or otherwise act uncivilly, expect to be called on it. I didn't lower the tone, but merely pointed out that others have.

And if you're deeply frustrated that someone has posted yet again on a subject that has been previously discussed and fully countered in another thread, then just direct them to that thread instead of being uncivil or rude, or else just ignore thread, as I shall now do. And a small shame on Battlefront administration for not insisting on keeping some of you guys better mannered.

[Zatoichi]

Hang on there, I don't think I acted at all unpleasantly - I think all name calling is wrong, that was my point.

Mind you, I also hate everyone who generalises.

I guess humour is often lost when typing things out - it sounded funnier in my head.

Anyway, this is all a diversion from the main point of this thread, so I'll also bow out gracefully.

[Michael Emrys]

I really do understand that things cost money but you are resistant to the fact that Battlefront is the only one publisher who wants money for patches.

Now hold on a minute. BFC does not charge for patches. For instance, the 1.11 patch, which apparently you have availed yourself of, was completely free, wasn't it?

What they do charge for are base games and modules and for upgrades. The distinctions of those three things have been carefully defined in these pages several times.

If you accept everything then Battlefront will do anything they want and you will be happy anyway(maybe payable demos, payments for mods or something) cause this is capitalism! Even in capitalism(specially in capitalism?) you have to fight for your rights but you prefer to be passive.

There you go making up things out of your own imagination again. BFC has done none of those things and probably won't. Why? Because if they did, their customers would begin leaving them in droves and they know that. Contrary to the idea that you apparently hold, we are not a bunch of mindless slaves to BFC's merest whim. Although I like their games very much, I have found plenty of things to criticize in them over the years and have not been shy in expressing those criticisms. Also, I have not purchased every item that they have put on the market, nor do I expect to do so. But as long as they produce items that I like and want to play, I will buy those items. So far, I think I have received good value for my money.

Michael

[Wodin]

beelzeboss..go away..this wasn't a thread to discuss paying for patches..there are enough of those.

[Waffen_PL]

... and this thread is to discuss... well what exacly?

To write paeans?

Dear Battlefront I love you and I'm thankful for cover armor arc with your 10$ patch. I wish i have real hunt order(instead of move to contact from older CMs) in next 3.0 patch

Michael Emrys - please don't try to explain me that patches are still free and this is not patch but something more. I have already said something about this "upgrade" and if you are ready to pay for patch ok, go for it but don't try to persuade others that this is something more than regular patch. I'm starting to think that you really believe this. You are creating your own definition of what is and what is not a patch

[easytarget]

Sarcasm is such an intellectually lazy superficial form of humor.

[Waffen_PL]

unfortunately it is very true

[agusto]

Sarcasm is such an intellectually lazy superficial form of humor.

Well there is worse than sarcasm. I know adults who laugh at their own farts.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Michael Emrys - please don't try to explain me that patches are still free and this is not patch but something more.

This is the first time BFC has ever added new features into an existing game. People have been asking BFC to back-port features from new games into older games since CMBB was released 10 years ago. So we have a choice: pay $10 to get what we have wanted for so long, or continue to see older releases made obsolete every time a new game comes out. If most of us are happy to pay $10 for the upgrade it's because we've been asking for it, not because we are stupid or taking Ecstasy.

[Wodin]

The thread was about asking what new features they have on their list..surely thats obvious..not about pricing policy that your trying to turn it into.

[Rocky Balboa]

Michael Emrys - please don't try to explain me that patches are still free and this is not patch but something more. I have already said something about this "upgrade" and if you are ready to pay for patch ok, go for it but don't try to persuade others that this is something more than regular patch. I'm starting to think that you really believe this. You are creating your own definition of what is and what is not a patch

This is the first time BFC has ever added new features into an existing game. People have been asking BFC to back-port features from new games into older games since CMBB was released 10 years ago. So we have a choice: pay $10 to get what we have wanted for so long, or continue to see older releases made obsolete every time a new game comes out. If most of us are happy to pay $10 for the upgrade it's because we've been asking for it, not because we are stupid or taking Ecstasy.

VAB makes and excellent point. perhaps the reason why you see so many people who are "ok" with paying for an upgrade is because, for a small sum $10.00. Your investment stays current. The alternative is to have a situation like we had with CMBO where you could never expect the game you bought to have the additional features of the latest version.

How would you feel if BF said CMBN will never receive another improvement and the next version of the game will be CM:EF and it will have all the latest features, you'll have to pay $55.00 for the new game to use those features but you'll never see those features in CMBN? That's exactly what they did with CMBO and it was a real bummer. Now with the CmX2 engine they have given us the ability to keep our investment fresh and at the same time experience all the latest features and enhancements for a very modest fee. This for me is worth the upgrade cost alone.

BF stated that patches (defined as fixes to existing components and features) are free and they have proven that. Upgrades (defined as new features and components added to a base game) will cost $5.00 - $10.00 and will be released about every 12 months. How can anyone complain about having to come up with $10.00 for a game every 12 months that they spend many hours playing?

As for multi-player, I understand that you might feel forced to upgrade because everyone else is upgrading, but that should tell you that its not just the "fanboys" here on this forum that don't seem to have a problem with this. I personally have 2 versions of CMBN installed v1.11 and v2.0 this gives me the ability to play with whichever version my opponent has. Notice I don't have a v1.0 or a v.101 installed because there is no excuse for someone not to patch to the latest version, especially when its free! Dont you just love free stuff?

If you really are against having to pay for an upgrade then go and talk to the people you play online with and convince them not to upgrade instead of coming here and ranting about it, and don't be surprise when you receive very little sympathy with your cause.

[Doug Williams]

As to Doug Williams and Zatoichi etc, if you act like a rude attack hound or a troll, or otherwise act uncivilly, expect to be called on it. I didn't lower the tone, but merely pointed out that others have.

Quod scripsi, scripsi.