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Your -2 moments...


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I haven't been playing Combat Mission very much these days, but I think the very worst -2 moment I have ever had was when I was playing a small scenario I made up in CMAK.

I lost two Platoons trying to storm a small house that had two U.S. rifle squads in it. I figured that with a 3-1 numerical superiority the fight would be over in a few seconds, and I was right.

Assault on an O.P.

I know it's an old video from a long time ago, but that one moment has stuck with me throughout the years, and I try not to make any mistakes like that ever again.

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Don't know if that last sentence is entirely true, but I do know that Battlefront still gives me a genuine feel of UBERMENSCHSUPERIORITY when I advance with a formation of three or more Tigers or Kingtigers at full speed on an open terrain. The might of those beasts..

But it still baffles me how the Germans (Jochen Peiper and his men!) were dumb enough to use them Kingtigers on those small, crappy and everwinding roads in the Ardennes in dec. 1944. Somewhere on the forum someone pointed out an internetsite where you could trace Peipers advance (forgot which site, sorry), and there is at least some proof of North Dakota's statement. What a waste of awesome armor..

OFF TOPIC. My biggest problem with research has been getting through the Tank history done by folks who love tanks and thus ignores real world operational concerns.

a.) Tiger, and Tiger II's were so un-reliable and expensive that they had little of no operational effect in any theatre.

b.) The Tiger II's heavy armour gained it very little actual protection. 57mm L52 APDS could kill it from a flank at 2,000m. Even standard APBC would work at 1,100m.

c.) There is good technical evidence Panther was at least 9 tonnes over-weight as concerns its transmission and running gear. German debriefs after the war showed the German wanted a 35-tonne tank and a 30 tonne tank would have been better.

The "genius" of German WW2 armour design is mostly myth. At a technical level it was confused and contradictory, being fuelled by some very stupid ideas for which it is hard to blame Hitler alone. There was some really good stuff they did, but it is largely ignored.

.....and the modelling of Protection, Mobility and Firepower in CMBN is a really good tool for examining the real limitations of heavy armour versus medium weight vehicles.

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Mine's basically the same as Seedorfs. In a recent custom-QB I bought two Panthers to back-stop an infantry platoon. "Heh" thought I "those Amis are going to get a spanking." I decided to risk one of them doing 'dumb' stuff .. and it quickly got immobbed, and eventually destroyed. Oops, but no big deal. I still have the other one.

Oh, wait.

No I don't.

And here comes about eight US tanks. Dang. The rest of this scenario is going to be tricky :(

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haha loving this thread..

I recently lost an entire platoon to erm.. not so friendly fire and cataclysmic tactical planning.

I called in one of those supposedly damn accurate air attacks. I lined my platoon nicely up against some bocage using the hunt command and told them all to hold their fire until they were ready. Platoon ready. Perfect planning and preparation I thought! I was awaiting my air support to soften up the stone buildings that were some distance ahead of me. I knew Germans lay in wait.. I just didn't know where. I wanted to expose them to my infantry platoon.

Turn button pressed and within 30 seconds whooooooooooooosh. Two entire sections of MY platoon were minced and obliterated by straffing.. I desperately tried to reorganize the remainder of my men but they were having none of it.. So I thought damn that's unlucky. No way will flyboy miss like that again. So I decided to hold my position. He'll come around and see the Germans this time. I decided to expose a section and let fly with lead. Some German fire was returned exposing their positions. Excellent I thought... Next turn they're dead..

Turn button pressed and I could hear the Typhoon coming in for another attack! Go get them I shouted..

Whoooooooooooooooosh!

Bomb dropped. Fanstas.......... Arrghhhhhh!!!

Remainder of platoon wiped out by bomb blast. Unfortunately the bomb didn't land quite where I expected. All the platoon bar a few stragglers were decimated in two attack runs.

Lessons to be learnt. NEVER, EVER use area fire near friendlies :D

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Rokko,

Figured I was in the ballpark, and over on IRemember.ru, I read (before Valera's Great Server Meltdown) an account of a trainload of conscripts sent into battle, with only the first two ranks having been issued a rifle and five cartridges per man.

Seedorf81,

Great story, and I well understand the brain disrupting effects of noisy neighbors. The ones above me are positively elephantine, seem to move around a lot and slam doors. I have a neighbor across the good sized courtyard (100 ft ?) whose enclosed on three sides ground floor patio faces right at me. Suffice it say she's loud, but her laugh is in realms beyond. Woke me in my room, windows shut, blinds down, earplugs in! And that was over and above the music my upstairs neighbors were playing and what my roomie had going (both audible but not sleep killers).

As for German, I know just enough to get into trouble, but not enough to get back out. You happened to use enough words that I did know that I could pretty much figure it out.

Regards,

John Kettler

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Rokko,

Figured I was in the ballpark, and over on IRemember.ru, I read (before Valera's Great Server Meltdown) an account of a trainload of conscripts sent into battle, with only the first two ranks having been issued a rifle and five cartridges per man.

Seedorf81,

Great story, and I well understand the brain disrupting effects of noisy neighbors. The ones above me are positively elephantine, seem to move around a lot and slam doors. I have a neighbor across the good sized courtyard (100 ft ?) whose enclosed on three sides ground floor patio faces right at me. Suffice it say she's loud, but her laugh is in realms beyond. Woke me in my room, windows shut, blinds down, earplugs in! And that was over and above the music my upstairs neighbors were playing and what my roomie had going (both audible but not sleep killers).

As for German, I know just enough to get into trouble, but not enough to get back out. You happened to use enough words that I did know that I could pretty much figure it out.

Regards,

John Kettler

John,

Though it shouldn't be in this forum, I want to express my sympathies to you in regard to the mercyless mind- and bodykillers that noisy neighbours are. Your remarks are eery recognizable.

I've had my fair share of misfortune in life, but nothing can compare with the destructive force of longlasting sleepdeprivation through noise-pollution. It is no wonder Secret Services all over the world use it as a method of torture.

And no-one who hasn't expierenced it, can even remotely understand what an unimaginable strain it puts on one's nervous system.

I do hope that you'll soon be in a position (Lottery gains? New rich girlfriend? Unexpected large inheritance from a long lost relative?) to buy a quieter place.

And thanks for your compliments on my linguistical capabilities. O, to be honest, my German is hardly better then yours.

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Somtimes I get too comfortable against the AI, and bunch up. Of course that is just when the arty comes in balls accurate. Other than that I would say bad choices by the AI path choice gets me most of my moments. A good example is deciding to go in the door on the side that is known to be covered by enemy rather than going in on the side that is not. I find myself yelling at the screen "where are you going you dumb asses!" Sure enough they run right into the fire and get waisted.

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... In a recent PBEM battle:

"Man ... that StuGIII has not moved in a LOOONNGG time. I bet my 81mm mortar rounds knocked a track off it! Let's move the Stuarts forward to pump some 37mm rounds into its side and finish it off." .... errhemm ....

yep, let's just say that the M5 crews were not agreeing with my wishful thinking.

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Not specific, but...

More than once I had some tanks that I felt were superior, either against what I was likely to meet or for the terrain. One goes up in flames and I think "they got lucky" and I wheel around to deal with whatever hit me. Second one goes up in flames and I think "now I'm getting mad!" and I figure my luck will change. Third one goes up in flames and then I think "I'm fooked".

Elapsed time? Probably 2 minutes.

Doh.

Sadly, this reminds me of pictures in front of a Panther bunker in the Gustav Line. The field was littered with British tanks all knocked out while trying to take out the bunker. I am pretty sure each attack the Brits thought "this time it will be different". Eventually it was, but the cost was high. At least in my games nobody paid with their lives for that sort of thinking.

Steve

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OFF TOPIC. My biggest problem with research has been getting through the Tank history done by folks who love tanks and thus ignores real world operational concerns.

When I was a kid I thought if I had to go through WW2 in the front lines I'd want to be a tanker. The more I've read of WW2 combat the more I think I'd rather be an infantryman. I'm not sure my chance of survival would be better, but I think knowing what I know about tank combat I'd rather take my chances on foot.

.....and the modelling of Protection, Mobility and Firepower in CMBN is a really good tool for examining the real limitations of heavy armour versus medium weight vehicles.

Right on the money.

CM has taught me the wisdom of the Sherman and T-34 doctrine. Better to have mediocre, but reliable, tanks everywhere instead of a few very good ones in limited places.

Of course when CMBO first came out a lot of people said we were biased against the German "cats". Nope, just not blinded by their lore. And beauty. Because let's face it, a Panther is a lot sexier than a Sherman :D

Steve

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Lets face it, the little Lynx (Luchs) recce tank sux as a combat vehicle. Its primary attraction is it looks like a mini-Tiger. :) I think a lot of German armor suffers from that same 'affliction'. The fact that its 'cool' doesn't automatically make it effective in combat. For example Stug does not seem to fare particularly well in CMBN. As a matter of fact the (real world) Germans judged Stug in Normandy to be something of a failure. Maybe it'll do better during Market Garden - that flat open Dutch terrain.

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Tiger, and Tiger II's were so un-reliable and expensive that they had little of no operational effect in any theatre.

While i broadly agree I think you could also make a case for the Tiger being quite useful on the Eastern Front in 1943-44 when it had its fair share of success both offensively and defensively. The Tiger II however achieved next to nothing.

Otherwise the Pz IV was of course the most important German tank and its upgradability (especially compared to e.g. early war British tanks) was a big plus for the German tank forces.

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While i broadly agree I think you could also make a case for the Tiger being quite useful on the Eastern Front in 1943-44 when it had its fair share of success both offensively and defensively. The Tiger II however achieved next to nothing.

Otherwise the Pz IV was of course the most important German tank and its upgradability (especially compared to e.g. early war British tanks) was a big plus for the German tank forces.

The real issue with the Tiger 1, was the expense and difficulty of operation (recovery and repair especially) just wasn't worth the cost of employment.

Right on the money.

CM has taught me the wisdom of the Sherman and T-34 doctrine. Better to have mediocre, but reliable, tanks everywhere instead of a few very good ones in limited places.

Of course when CMBO first came out a lot of people said we were biased against the German "cats". Nope, just not blinded by their lore. And beauty. Because let's face it, a Panther is a lot sexier than a Sherman :D

Sadly, CMBN game results are not a recognised military theory or academic argument!! :(

For example Stug does not seem to fare particularly well in CMBN. As a matter of fact the (real world) Germans judged Stug in Normandy to be something of a failure. Maybe it'll do better during Market Garden - that flat open Dutch terrain.

the Stug developed into something it was never intended to be. IIRC, in 1935 it was just supposed to be a direct fire assault gun to support infantry divisions. By 1944 it had become a direct fire anti-tank gun, and I am note sure the Germans really knew how to use it to best effect. The average smart and experienced CMBN player probably know more about the Stugs limitations that a German Battalion or even Regimental Commander.

..... and CMBN really shows the limits of towed AT guns, again and again, so the read across would seem to be pretty good.

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By 1944 it had become a direct fire anti-tank gun, and I am note sure the Germans really knew how to use it to best effect.

they had been using turretless tank destroyers like te jp iv for years by then...shouldnt this be enough experience with that kind of weaponary? i m taking quite an advantage of its low profile in CMBN and i love the jp iv for the same reason. but on the other hand, it s just game. as for judging if the stug was a failure, one also has to take into account that it was way cheaper than tanks with turrets. afaik a panzer iv did cost almost twice as much and i personally would trade a single panzer iv for 2 stug with a 75 mm L48 gun anytime.

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they had been using turretless tank destroyers like te jp iv for years by then...shouldnt this be enough experience with that kind of weaponary? i m taking quite an advantage of its low profile in CMBN and i love the jp iv for the same reason. but on the other hand, it s just game. as for judging if the stug was a failure, one also has to take into account that it was way cheaper than tanks with turrets. afaik a panzer iv did cost almost twice as much and i personally would trade a single panzer iv for 2 stug with a 75 mm L48 gun anytime.

IIRC, the JagdPz IV didn't enter service till early 1944, so it was around at most a few months into 1944- but yes the Marder and a few other should have given some insight. That said how many people lived to learn from their mistakes and make adjustments?

I wouldn't judge the Stug a failure. Correctly employed it clearly had merit, but it needed far greater skill to be employed effectively than did a Pz IV, a one for one basis. For a lot less expense, you could have the JgdPz 38(T) which was a design is near genius, given the very limited resources.

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So here's my moment,

Fighting in thick bocage, thus I'm sending two engineers squads around the right flank blasting holes for pathways. First squad gets chewed up bad, they become my ad hoc scouts, & they payed heavy in blood for it. (not my best battle plan). The second squad fairs better & goes about my plan. Then about 35min into this action my First squad has two guys left, second squad has 7 guys, HQ squad is down to just the commander. Now my 9 engineers left are almost done with their flanking/blasting mission, on the second to the last row of bocage my guys approach, spot & don't see any enemy troops. So i order them to blast through, which they do, as soon as they breach through they spot an MG ammo bearing team, a Mortar ammo team, and a scout team. (all to my surprise!!) Now a fierce short fire fight erupts, 10-12 Germans vs 9 GI's. Two of my GI's get KIA, the other 7 all fall to their knees & surrender!!!!

Now the amazing part, my sole HQ squad man left, the officer, is about a 100 yards behind all this action. So for some reason i order him up to the bocage where my 7 guys just surrendered. He runs up to the edge of the bocage amongst the surrendered GI's & spots the German scout team opposite the hedgerow about 20-25 yards away & opens fire with his Carbine, killing one German. He then hurls a grenade over which suppresses the other 10 or so Germans. Now my officer (named Callahan) I wonder if he's Dirty Harry's dad???) shoots his last five rounds of M1 Carbine ammo, now he's empty, no ammo at all. Just then the 7 surrendered GI's around him start grabbing their rifles back and pouring lead & grenades into the remaining Germans!!! All Germans opposite the bocage are now dead or wounded!!! I did not know your troops could become unsurrendered. The 7 of them were back in the fight!!! How cool is that? Also is that new in 2.0? Needless to say i want Callahan put in for a medal!

Now my 7 guys finish their bocage busting mission. in the last five minutes of the battle they flank remnants of a German rifle squad in thick wood, & because their out of grenades and well maybe because their really really pissed off by now hurl two of thier remaining four demo charges at the Germans, BOOM!!! four dead Germans, all this at a range of 20 yards or less.

So that my moment:cool:

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So here's my moment...

And a splendid sequence of moments it is too!

...I did not know your troops could become unsurrendered....is that new in 2.0?

Nope, it's been like that since at least BN. I've had a couple of surrendering troops rescued, but never quite in the face of such enemy odds, or with such an excellent timing :)

Needless to say i want Callahan put in for a medal!

I should co-co!

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