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M10 mounted MG


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OK, Can someone give me any advice how to get this MG into the action.

I have M10's vs enemy infantry. I am out of HE rounds and this appears to be the only decent weapon left to use.

Do I need to be unbutton and do I need the turret turned away from the enemy.

It's been a while since I played with it, but IIRC the MG will only fire to the rear quadrant of the turret, and the crew has to be unbuttoned.

This makes it particularly difficult to use deliberately because the unit AI will tend to want to turn the front of the turret towards any known enemy, regardless of your orders. But sometimes you can get a few bursts out of the MG by creative use of FACE and/or Cover Arc orders.

The MG mount was really designed for AA use; it was very poorly situated for use against ground targets as it couldn't really be brought to bear against a target to the front unless the crew actually got out of the turret and stood on the rear deck. This was actually at least occasionally done IRL, but CM does not model this.

I have also seen photographs of M10s with an extra MG mount, usually a .30 browning, bolted or welded onto the front of the turret lip where it would be easier to use against ground targets. But you can find all sorts of creative weaponry additions to vehicles if you look through photo archives.

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OK, Can someone give me any advice how to get this MG into the action.

I have M10's vs enemy infantry. I am out of HE rounds and this appears to be the only decent weapon left to use.

Do I need to be unbutton and do I need the turret turned away from the enemy.

In theory you should be able to issue a target light order and have the unit AI will work it out on it's own. Let us know what happens ...

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In theory you should be able to issue a target light order and have the unit AI will work it out on it's own. Let us know what happens ...

THAT IS WHAT I THOUGHT ALSO, Except when you select a M10, there is no target light option.

So in other wards, pretty useless.

It would be nice to see a member get out and use it in the forward direction.

I mean I have had a commander stand on top of a turret to get a view before.

Dont ask me how that happened, I cannot remember if it was a dismount and the dude decided to hang there for a moment since he could see the enemy.

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THAT IS WHAT I THOUGHT ALSO, Except when you select a M10, there is no target light option.

So in other wards, pretty useless.

It would be nice to see a member get out and use it in the forward direction.

I mean I have had a commander stand on top of a turret to get a view before.

Dont ask me how that happened, I cannot remember if it was a dismount and the dude decided to hang there for a moment since he could see the enemy.

Correct; Target Light definitely does not work. The .50 BMG on the M10 works rather like the rear-firing MG on certain Soviet tanks in CMBB -- if an enemy happens to show up in the rear arc, it may fire a burst or two. But that's about all you can expect of it.

In theory, having a crew member get out of the vehicle and stand on the engine deck sounds nice, until you think about all the times when you definitely DON'T want a crew member hanging out on the engine deck with his ass in the wind, and all the additional modeling complexities this brings (e.g., can the vehicle move with someone riding on the engine deck? If so, how fast can the vehicle go before he's likely to get pitched off?).

But theoretically, it would be a nice thing to see modeled. Among other things, certain Sherman models also have a rear turret-mounted .50 BMG that can only really be effectively fired on ground targets by someone standing on the rear deck. And tank crews definitely did sometimes go topside to fire the MG. Further, not only tank crews did this -- sometimes, one or two accompanying infantry would "ride shotgun" on the tank and man the top MG while the tank crew stayed inside the vehicle. I have no idea how behavior like this could be integrated into the CMx2 engine, but it's a nice thing to imagine might be possible someday.

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THAT IS WHAT I THOUGHT ALSO, Except when you select a M10, there is no target light option.

So in other wards, pretty useless.

It would be nice to see a member get out and use it in the forward direction.

I mean I have had a commander stand on top of a turret to get a view before.

Dont ask me how that happened, I cannot remember if it was a dismount and the dude decided to hang there for a moment since he could see the enemy.

Hmmm ... If it has no target light command then I'm guessing that the MG is just for looks.

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OK, Can someone give me any advice how to get this MG into the action.

I have M10's vs enemy infantry. I am out of HE rounds and this appears to be the only decent weapon left to use.

Do I need to be unbutton and do I need the turret turned away from the enemy.

Some armored vehicles (and this looks like one of them) are equipped with machine guns so that the crews can provide for their local security (self preservation) when unsupported by friendly infantry. In such cases, its not an offensive weapon system but rather a defensive one.

Combat psychology is a funny thing. Crews just felt naked in combat without machine guns on their vehicle. Ma Deuce as pacifier in many respects . . .

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In a way it is a problem/benefit of the CMx2 1:1 modelling.

You, sitting in your central heated house, with a nice glass of pre-Christmas mulled wine and a tasty looking warm mince pie next to you, want some poor battered bastard in Bastogne or wherever to climb out on the back of some ****ty little under armoured tank destroyer to ........................... whatever.

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In a way it is a problem/benefit of the CMx2 1:1 modelling.

You, sitting in your central heated house, with a nice glass of pre-Christmas mulled wine and a tasty looking warm mince pie next to you, want some poor battered bastard in Bastogne or wherever to climb out on the back of some ****ty little under armoured tank destroyer to ........................... whatever.

That is absolutely correct. And I want a command to tell him when I want him to do it :D

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IIRC, the photos I've seen depicting this behavior more often show the crewman kneeling rather than standing on the rear deck. Does that sound unlikely? Strikes me that not only would a kneeling man receive more cover from incoming fire behind the turret, his posture would also be more stable if the vehicle began to move.

Michael

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You may recall M10s originally had a nasty problem. They would occassionally decide to self target infantry or something and start to slowly pivot around so its mg would face the target. Bad bad bad idea. So BFC decided to place some genuinely painful restrictions on .50 cal use to forestall that catastrophic pivot problem. Really, that rear mounted MG was just about as impossible to use in real life as it was in the game. Its an AA mount without an AA threat to shoot at. I believe (though I'm not sure) M3 GMC halftrack with rear pintle mg has the same restrictions as M10 TD.

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MikeyD,

In a recent scenario, I had exactly the M3 MG problem you described. The .50 gunner ate it, I couldn't reman the gun (busy assaulting one) and despite the skate rail which in actuality would've provided would've provided forward MG coverage, I spent the rest of the battle with a useless to me rear gunner.

Regards,

John Kettler

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Even M10 crews thought the 50cal was in not an also useful position {couldn't be help due to the gun size and turret layout}-and getting rid of those pesky Volkstrum teens and Opas and the battle harden and lucky survivors in the Whermacht with their Panzerfaust meant they needed more firepower and quick-hence toward the end 30 cals started showing up on M10's. Not clear how they were mounted. But they were there-Even Creighton Abrams in his M4 Sherman had an extra 30 cal mounted on his turret and look how many a stock M4 has.

Perhaps in a patch Battlefront can make them available at a later time period. Did they have this at Normandy hmmm not saying they did-but toward the end. Jan-Feb 45 you had a whole different US Army on the move compared to D-Day.

Hard Lessons learned. What is depicted here wasn't unique in 1945. Autumn or winter 44. Don't know.

Oh yeah remember M10 were suppose to be to kill a tank and scoot. Panzerfaust and Panzershreck Infantry wasn't even considered when this tank was designed. It wasn't designed to provide close support for Infantry. But events and circumstances conspired for it to do just that. Wish there was picture of the M10 Audie Murphy was on when earned that medal-I don't know if it had a 30 caliber also or where exactly on the rear area the M10 was on fire.

m10.jpg

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Michael Emrys,

In the TV series I mentioned, the guys on the MGs were, as I recall, in deep squatting crouches behind the turrets, not standing up like public monuments.

Tempestzzzz,

The HistoryNet account of Audie Murphy's Bulge action clearly talks about the TDs having both a .50 and a .30 on each one.

http://www.historynet.com/audie-murphy-one-man-stand-at-holtzwihr.htm

Here's another article on his epic stand, complete with pictures of where he fought. One of the supporting pictures shows an M10 armed with a .30 and a .50.

http://standwheretheyfought.jimdo.com/alsace-2010-holzwihr-where-audie-murphy-won-his-moh/

TankDestroyer.net shows the 601st TD Battalion had M10s until February 1945. Audie's action was fought January 23, 1945. So, he got confused by the switchover from M10s to M36s which occurred a week after his Bulge MoH action, as seen in his talking in the first link about watching 90mm shots bounce off the armored sides of the attacking German tanks.

http://www.tankdestroyer.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=195:601st-tank-destroyer-battalion&catid=43:battalions600s&Itemid=101

Regards,

John Kettler

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Tempestzzzz,

Here are some of the AARs for the 601st TD.

http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/utils/getfile/collection/p4013coll8/id/3582/filename/3592.pdf

The last one covers the period 1-28 February 1945. Originally classified SECRET, it states the switch from M10s to M36s didn't begin until about a week into the month. Thus, Audie fought his MoH Holztwihr action on the rear deck of a burning M10.

If you wade through the lessons learned for the various AARs, the battalion commander wants removable roof armor, sponson .30 cal MG mounts, TC periscopes, 6-8X telescopic sights and other goodies for his M10s. One of the more interesting bits is an urgent request that "Tiny Tim" self-contained generators be installed on his TDs. The radios were apparently a huge drain on the vehicle batteries.

Regards,

John Kettler

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.50 cal does have one (real world) benefit that allows standing on the engine deck and blazing away - thats twice the range of a rifle round. If you're going to town on a farmhouse 1200m away on the opposite side of a valley the chance of return fire knocking you down is pretty slim. That's a luxury we don't often see with CM maps. How often has your .50 cal Jeep gunner (in CMFI) lived to fight another day?

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Am having a terrible time understanding the engagement geometry for Audie's fight. If the TD was knocked out with the cannon facing to the enemy, my brain doesn't understand why he'd have to turn the .50 around 180 degrees. Nor does it grok how he could wind up totally exposed to fire from ankles up. I've tentatively decided the flames from the hatches refers not to the driver's position but to some sort of hatches let into the removable field expedient roof armor over the fighting compartment, as seen in some of the 601st AARs. I'd be a lot more worried about that kind of fire than something from the driver's compartment.

http://www.audiemurphy.com/documents/doc010/PFCAbramski_27Feb45.pdf

Regards,

John Kettler

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The top pic on page 131 shows an M10's .50 in use. Pages 144-145 show improvised roof armor for the M10. Haven't seen any of these pics before. The full roof armor set for the M10 has hinges at the junction of the forward third with the second third.

http://books.google.com/books?id=dwhokyMsTakC&pg=PA144&lpg=PA144&dq=m10+roof+armor&source=bl&ots=WfqjdL7zMA&sig=EdUM52_OHY33kYgllkzk0EKGB-g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SqbBUKHGHoqA2gXW14CICQ&ved=0CGEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=m10%20roof%20armor&f=false

Regards,

John Kettler

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