Some of my thoughts on DBP

[John Kettler]

Since I'm having terrible problems giving LLF what he wants, in a form he likes, I've decided to start my own thread here. The goal is to present certain items which may or may not be useful to him, but won't jam up his threads when I get into them. Also, for those who haven't waded through whole books on DBP with a gimlet eye, I shall provide some overview material.

POTENTIAL LLF RESOURCES

1. De Castries's Command Bunker

It's 8 meters wide (1 AS) x 20 meters long (2.5 AS).

Dimensions are taken from here

http://www.rustycompass.com/destinations/detail/city_17-vietnam-dien-bien-phu/14-see-and-do/697-colonel-de-castries-bunker-dien-bien-phu#.ULlPDY59lHg

1.A. De Castries's Command Bunker color pics showing trenches around it, too; also some photos of other trenches.

http://deanoworldtravels.wordpress.com/2012/02/02/dien-bien-phu-north-vietnam-2010/

2. Quad .50s

French, not VM. They're Maxson towed mounts and had essentially unlimited ammunition.

http://www.hksw.org/West%20of%20the%20river.htm

(Fair use)

"On the western side of the bridge are two things to note. On the southern side is a marker commemorating the first Viet Minh unit to get across. Translated it says:-

“At 2 p.m. on 7th May 1954 Company 360, Division 312 attacked and took Muong Thanh Bridge , striking at the heart of the enemy and inflicting defeat on the high command of the Dien Bien Phu group of fortresses.”

The jubilation that those men must have felt after the months of siege can only be imagined. On the north side is one of the reasons that the Viet Minh took so long to get there: the remnants of a quad .50 calibre machine gun. There were four of these weapons at Dien Bien Phu, two placed further north of the bridge on “Sparrowhawk” and two placed further south on “Juno”, so how this one got to the end of the bridge is anyone’s guess. It was probably moved after the battle but it might have been moved in the last few days of combat. The quad 50s kept firing up to the last day. There was no shortage of ammunition, even for their prodigious appetites, and, unlike the tube artillery they had no recoil hydraulics vulnerable to near misses from Viet Minh shellfire."

"Wild Bill" Wilder, of CM scenario renown, repeatedly discusses their deadly effect here.

http://members.multimania.co.uk/indochine/ops/dbpwilde.html

Fair Use

General

"Four quad-fifties were also set up at strategic points of fire. They had gained fame in neutralizing the Chinese human wave attacks in Korea."

Beatrice (may or may not be a quad .50)

"Though hit hard, the Legionnaires rallied to the moment. A well-placed .50 caliber machine gun cut a huge swath in the charging enemy ranks. It caused enormous casualties. The Vietminh reacted swiftly and brought up a recoilless rifle team, which took it out with one shot. By now the fighting was hand to hand, vicious and bloody."

Gabrielle (probable quad .50, based on use of "machine guns," combined with singular "emplacement").

"The next victim was Gabrielle. This time, instead of human wave assaults that were used on Beatrice, the Viet Minh sought to overcome the defenders with massive artillery fire and infiltration. When machines guns from the northern bunkers stopped the attackers cold, one People's Army gunner dragged a 75mm wheeled bazooka to within 150 yards of the emplacement, scored three hits on it, and left it demolished, smoking and eerily silent."

Claudine and Elianne

"The steady digging of approaching trenchworks marked the assault on Dominique and Eliane. Suddenly on March 30, another torrential outburst of artillery against the two French strongpoints was followed by wave after wave of screaming infantry. The 4th Colonial gunners depressed the barrels of their weapons and fired point-blank into the massed Do-Boi. This, with a rain of bullets from the quad fifties caused the Viet Minh to retreat blindly into a recently laid minefield."

Seems to me these were very important weapons, but they aren't directly in the game. I checked. Nor are such old standbys as the CMAK M16 GMC and my favorite infantry eater, the 2cm Flakvierling--in either CMBN or CMFI (I think). Compared to CMx1, our toybox has shrunk! I was thinking that sinking an M16 GMC into the ground and covering most of it up might work. I also thought something near the effect could be obtained via a a dugin Flakvierling, though admittedly bigger and taller. If it's any consolation, force choices in CM:Normandy make ours look munificent.

3. Another set of protection factors for assessing artillery vs entrenched infantry

http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/ww2/snippet/artillery.htm

Fair Use

"Fortifications, being man made protective terrain, not surprisingly also significantly affects the lethality of fire. Evans (2001-5) lists some interesting estimates on how vulnerability changes with the posture of the target. The following table gives the relative risk of becoming a casualty to ground-burst shells on ‘average’ ground:

Posture Risk

Standing 1

Lying 1/3

Firing from open fire trenches

1/15 - 1/50

Crouching in open fire trenches

1/25 - 1/100

GENERAL INTEREST

This is a succinct summary of the battle of DBP set forth chronologically.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/non_aviation/read.main/1557314/

"Wild Bill" Wilder's DBP Overview

http://members.multimania.co.uk/indochine/ops/dbpwilde.html

1:50,000 topographic map of DBP and surrounds (click arrows for light annotation notes)

http://www.rjsmith.com/Dien_Bien_Phu_Cropped.html

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Continuing my plan from before, I present my new finds.

GENERAL INTEREST

British Pathe' DBP newsreels.

http://www.britishpathe.com/search/query/dien+bien+phu

Unfortunately, since these are previews intended to elicit video purchases, there are no soundtracks. Even so, there are many matters shown likely to be of interest to various people here, ranging from Ju-52 bombers, to Bearcats, Legionnaire parachute regiment insertion, C-119 cargo drops, French RR and mortars being fired, the Angel of DBP, even riots after DBP fell.

Have gone through only a few so far, but they go a long way to making concrete people, places and events I'd only read of generally and seen a pic of here and there. Of particular interest to me was the use of the French Navy's PB4Y-1 Privateer heavy bombers, something I don't recall ever reading about. Looks to me as though the Privateers are going after VM gun positions. Unless my eyes deceive me, there appears to be a brief look at DBP, an area littered with craters, with some not on the base, but apparently created by large bombs delivered in the ultimately failed defense of the base.

This is a special issue of Vietnam Veterans of America Online, one devoted specifically to discussing various aspects of Die Bien Phu and its context.

http://vvaveteran.org/32-4/dienbienphu-intro.html

John Prados and other heavy hitters hold forth, painting a picture of the overall French situation, the quality of the troops, views of those in command. Why the French seemingly had everything in their favor, but still lost. From there, the scene shifts to Vietnam, the rise of Ho Chi Minh, Chinese influences, Giap's ascension, the VM battle plan. This part, written by Lady Borton, has some excellent interview excerpts with key VM DBP survivors. Marc Leepson wraps things up by looking at how America fit into DBP and how that led to American involvement in Vietnam later. He explains how U.S. aid was instrumental in allowing the French to fight in Indochina, yet also gave the French fits when direct aid was granted to various local leaders, too. This piece sets forth the geostrategic views of American leaders, their mindsets and pronouncements, some downright eerily predictive, such as the type of war we'd be facing and the limitations of airpower.

The separate timeline is most useful, with VM planning and actions on one side, and what the French said, did and attempted on the other.

From the old E History site, there's a thoughtful essay on the whole DBP campaign.

http://ehistory.osu.edu/vietnam/essays/combined/0001.cfm

It provides the military context, what the French planned to do and what their assessment was of the VM. The same approach is used in assessing the VM. The operational assessments made by each side are critiqued and the consequences set forth. How each side did and didn't execute its vision for the battle is remorselessly detailed, together with some good chrome.

French artillery commander Colonel Piroth evidently didn't simply blow his brains out. Rather, he lay down on his bunk, held a grenade on his chest, and Hollywood style, pulled the pin with his teeth! His artillery losses were shocking, particularly among his heavy mortars, though his 105s were hurt, too.

I suspect his mortars took such heavy losses because they were simply less resistant to artillery fire than the far more heavily constructed tube artillery (which was vulnerable to artillery because recuperator damage could cause problems ranging from annoying to disabling). War Office weapon effectiveness studies during WW II had established, for example, that a single artillery shellburst in an 88's gunpit generally did NOT kill the gun.

There was no similar WO study on mortars that I know of, but ding up or pierce the relatively thin, weak mortar tube, and the weapon's rendered useless. But what likely drove Piroth to kill himself was the massacre of his highly trained gunners in their open pits, in the face of an unexpected hurricane of VM fire he could've prepared for, but didn't. He was offered more guns before the battle began, recall, but disdainfully turned them down. Nor were the gun positions hardened as much as they could've been, even factoring in French deficiencies in fortification materiel.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Wodin]

John,,whilst reading the thread it seems to me he doesn't really want your input at all. Not sure why your bothering doing this, it's unlikely he will read it anyway, me thinks your wasting your time.

[John Kettler]

Wodin,

That's up to him. There are others who are interested in various aspects of the Indochina War generally and DBP in particular, and they may find something of value here. Nor is there anything to stop people from thinking about some of the in-game weapon effectiveness and implementation issues I've raised, in his fortification durability test thread and here.

Our toybox isn't very big compared to what we had in CMx1. From what I can tell, it'd be much easier to do DBP in CMx1, given most of the pieces are there directly, the trenches protect, pillboxes are a challenge, and man eaters, such as the M16 GMC and 2cm Flakvierling, are available. Mind, I don't consider something like this likely, but there are still people designing scenarios for CMx1.

It's a shame we are missing so many weapons from before, not to mention AAA depiction, but each weapon requires time consuming and expensive rendering and animation. That's probably why we wound up with what we did.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Sublime]

John you should just read Jules Roy's or Windrow's book. LLF definitely knows about Piroths suicide. He actually blew himself up in a corner. The teeth thing is a fabrication to make it more interesting. First, there'd be no way to tell how he actually did pull the pin, there wasnt much left of the upper torso or head. Second, pulling grenades with teeth is a myth thats been debunked, you're more likely to damage your teeth.

Third, his gun crews took heavy losses because they only dug open pits and didn't bother with overhead cover. He was warned about this repeatedly and ignored the advice, preferring the open pits for easier traversing of his guns. He also turned down extra artillery pieces and supplies stating he had quite enough before the battle began.

No one is actually sure why he killed himself, however those who were there stated (and once again this is covered in excruciating detail in the books) that his complete faith in counter battery fire destroying the VM guns was shaken completely when they couldn't even find and target, let alone destroy the VM positions. They managed to destroy a (count them, 1 ) truck though. After the initial bombardment and combat (very early in the battle actually) he seemed shaken, and went from CP to CP begging for forgiveness and saying it was all his fault. He stopped eating. Concerned, they sent the Chaplain to him, who spent some time with him and left saying he felt better. Then he killed himself. His batman came rushing in. They found him, told the troops it was a direct hit on his hooch, and buried him promptly.

[John Kettler]

Sublime,

I plan to read both when I get a chance. It's a bit bizarre to find myself discussing suicide by grenade forensics, but your points are well taken.

Pulling the grenade pin with the teeth could be done--if you were prepared for dental damage and/or had at least partially folded down the pin ends. The latter could and did wind up not going well for our own GIs.

What little I've seen of VM gun positions were the narrow FOV full enclosures for the priceless 105s. The French artillery pits, from what I've seen of them, were no more than half, if that, the depth of our Vietnam ones. If this is what one their weapon pits looked like, no wonder Piroth's artillerymen were massacred!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bob_harlow/21644813/

Here's another. Note the pit top is no higher than the axle on the howitzer.

http://www.alamy.com/thumbs/6/%7BEA164653-4CF0-498A-94F9-3CF0D5A43BCE%7D/BXRRTP.jpg

The last French 155mm gun pit (I can stand to post a link for). I feel sorry for those French gunners! Like their cause or not, these men deserved a better chance to survive.

http://deanoworldtravels.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/dbp-110mm-cannon.jpg

Notice our pits hit just over the tops of the tires. And that's with the weapon on its jack.

http://www.landscaper.net/images/155Noble.jpg

For comparison, a WW II shot, with the emplacement not requiring all aspect firing capability. Note the depth of the emplacement.

http://www.lastfrontgame.com/images/weapons/usa/USA_155mm_M114Howitzer.jpg

Did we do this all the time? No, but where there was any real threat, we did. Firebases got harder and deeper the longer they were there and the more they were shot at.

I'm surprised the French 120mm mortars took such a severe drubbing, so soon. Were they specifically targeted by the VM because the mortars were so dangerous to their advancing entrenchments?

I can well believe the French would move Heaven and Earth to keep hidden what really happened to Colonel Piroth, lest morale plummet. I don't know if the French had enough fortification materiel to provide overhead cover, but the pits I saw were risible as gunpits.

GENERAL

Here is a long piece which draws upon many of the sources LLF and you have named.

http://parallelnarratives.com/vietnam-notebook-first-indochina-war-dien-bien-phu-1953-1954/

The first excerpt addresses Colonel Piroth, his arrogance and underestimating the VM more or less systematically. By the way, In "Wild Bill" Wilder's piece he says that some experts believe that had the French had 6 more quad .50s, DBP would've held. Certainly, it would've lasted a lot longer and VM casualties would've been considerably worse.

(Fair Use)

At Dien Bien Phu the French artillery commander was one Lt. Col. Charles Piroth. Like many of his comrades, Piroth was a highly decorated veteran of World War II. (snip) He knew his craft and was outspoken about it. (snip) It was he who most outspokenly preached the gospel of superior French artillery and firepower. When arriving in the valley one of the first questions on the minds of many when seeing the proximity of the surrounding mountains was: what happens if the Vietminh put artillery up there? The French had occupied the low ground and left the mountain crests above open. Basic tactics tell us that is not sound military practice. But Piroth would discount those fears as overstated. He preached that the Vietminh didn’t have the ability to get large amounts of artillery up there, and if somehow they did, his guns would quickly target them and destroy them. A few test rounds would be fired for effect and that was that. Piroth liked to boast that even if he couldn’t destroy all the enemy guns, Giap could never bring enough ammunition into the valley to do the French serious damage. This turned out to be a serious miscalculation, with grave consequences for Piroth."

Nor does it help if a military unit takes severe HQ losses just as a critical siege begins. Can you imagine the screams we'd hear were CM gamers subjected to that, practically out of the gate? The indictment of the ineffectiveness of French CB fire (love your killed one truck!) reminds me of the air attack claims for killing trailered V-2s in the field, when not one was ever hit. Ditto mobile SCUD missiles in Iraq and Air Force tank kills in the air war prior to the commitment of land forces to combat in Desert Storm.

Ibid.

(Fair use

"Within a matter of hours the world of the French defenders at Dien Bien Phu had been turned upside down. They had lost two battalion commanders and their two outermost defense fortifications were in danger of being overrun on the first day of the battle. To complicate things, the Vietminh artillery seemed to be unreachable, dug into the back sides of the mountains overlooking the valley with only the muzzles showing. The French artillery observers could see the muzzle flashes at night and plot them, but silencing the guns required a direct hit in the firing slot, something that was highly unlikely. There is no evidence that the French ever silenced a single bunkered artillery piece dug in for direct fire.

All afternoon and into the evening, Lt Col Piroth had wandered the central position in shocked resignation. Events had shown that he had failed in his duties as artillery commander for the base. He had failed to anticipate this eventuality. Now his overconfident boasts to visiting dignitaries rang hollow, drowned out by the sound of the dominant Vietminh artillery. All he could do was wander in a daze, apologizing for the failure of his counter-battery program. Then, in the early morning hours of March 14, the second day of battle, alone in his room, Piroth committed suicide by holding a grenade to his body. De Castries reported to the troops that Piroth was killed by a Vietminh shell that had buried him in the bunker where he died."

I think it would make a great what if scenario. Refight DBP with more French artillery, ammunition, (maybe more quad .50s) and overhead cover of the guns. Am not sure this was possible, given the guns had to be able to fire in all directions. The howitzer sits on a firing jack, and, if the trail spades are lifted, rotate 360 degrees to cover fire sectors outside of weapon traversing limits.

Did the French have specific crew shelters for their gun crews?

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Right M55 Quad .50; wrong siege! This is Khe Sanh, RSVN 1968 but it gives a sense of what the same weapon would've done at DBP over a decade earlier. Viet Minh--brave, crazy or both to face this thing?

Regards,

John Kettler

[Sublime]

Well the French only had 4. And they were used indirectly more than directly it seems.

The real thing that's interesting is that the VM weren't able to neutralize the French artillery quickly at all. The French couldn't really do effective counterbattery (trouble locating VM artillery, VM artillery on the forward slopes in casemate positions) but the French artillery took a terrible toll on the VM attacks. The captured French officer Vaillant (Piroth's replacement) when shown the VM arty after the battle commented he would have been able to wipe out DBP's arty in 48 hours.

[John Kettler]

From the distant past (1971!) comes a discovery I made while digging up some stuff on armor in Sicily and Italy for Fuser. May I present the AFV-G2 magazine featuring--wait for it--French armor at DBP? Some guy named John Loop wrote about it there, beginning on Page 4.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/105589859/1971-AFV-G2-Volume-3-No-4

Sublime,

As you may or may not have noted, I specifically pointed out the VM had near zero competence at conducting indirect fire. The only weapons, per what I read, firing indirectly under FO control were the precious 105s. Ginning up the firing calculations for them took all day, with shoots conducted at night from the second range of hills back, out of French LOS.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Sublime]

It's not just a competence problem. The 'toilet bowl' of mountains around DBP makes indirect fire a difficult proposition at best, and doesn't give freedom to target the entire valley if used..

They actually did quite a bit of fake shoots too, complete with dummy explosives, the whole 9. However a huge amount of their guns never left the 'casemates' on the forward slope they constructed, even after taking Beatrice, Anne Marie, etc.

Did you see my post about Herbert Bleyer? Interesting guy.

Also interesting to note - failed drops by the French led to the VM having fuzes just as good as the French - VT/short delay (bunker busting, etc)

And in an echo of WW1, the VM actually dug a mine under a French hill and packed it with explosives, blowing it up early in May prior to the final assault. They detonated it too soon however. The damage was big but the actual MG bunker and casemate they were targetting wasnt destroyed and they didnt exploit the explosion..

[John Kettler]

Sublime,

"No one said it has to be be pretty,, it just has to work." I did see the post about Bleyer. Interesting? I'll say! My assessment is that the fuzes were VT, but I'm unaware there was already a multimode fuze of the type you describe. VT would fit the description of a fuze of great antipersonnel effectiveness. Standard shell fuzes would already provide for a cover penetrating delayed mode. The VM did indeed explode an underground mine, and I believe the location was shown on that illuminated terrain map in the DBP museum. It's in that material I dug up for LLF and should be labeled the text describing the link.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Sublime]

Oh yes there were multitudes of fuses. Windrow goes into great detail. In fact after the beginning battles in March the French had a serious parachute shortage. the US supplied them with more, then there was a problem getting a device to delay chute openings. The US were going to send some but DBP needed them ASAP so the French had Viet firework makers make improvised devices. Anyway after everything had to be airdropped the VM managed to get quite a bit of the supplies daily, and the French were being supplied with VT fuses, regular, and 'new US fuses' that had a very slight delay after impact. These were the bunker busters I described. However French overhead cover was very poorly done, except where ex Wehrmact troops seemed to be in charge. Of course after the shocking opening battles it was improved but metal or rocks for a 'bursting layer' of overhead cover were in short supply. PSP plates from the runway started being cannibalized and in fact soon a huge amount of communications trenches were covered with a layer of PSP pipe (better than nothing, even if it does have holes in it) and was soon christened 'The Metro' by the troops. I was shocked at the amount of casualties the French took. The Vietnamese took more of course, but the French took 40% casualties. As Windrow aptly points out Arnhem and DBP are two different things, but to give a comparison thats close strength wise and in being surrounded the Brit 1st Airborne took I believe 15% casualties for Arnhem, which still was devastating of course. (These two figures are from Windrow, The Last Valley)

Oh and speaking of Bleyer I never got the info I wanted on him, which was basically any. There was another interesting character but his name slipped me. German legionarre, got captured. The VM took captured prisoners whose countries were now Communist (basically Warsaw Pact countries, namely East Germany) and actually 'repatriated' them. I.E. were forced to board a Soviet plane for their countries. Not sure how they were received, however they all werent shot out of hand because the guy I brought up (not Bleyer) managed to escape East Germany, make it to France and collect several years of back pay and an Escapers medal.

One final thing I want to discuss. Windrow makes reference to a legend, though I'd call it an anecdote. The French had dropped NCOs and officers to make partisan groups with Thais and Montagnards. It actually was fairly successful, but with the Geneva Accords the French pulled out and literally told their NCO's (nevermind the poor native partisans who weren't even afforded a message) to 'make their way south' which was impossible. Not only that but the VM had very publicly sentenced them to death in absentia. Tough situation and they basically all were killed. However apparently 2 years later a plane flying near the border got a radio transmission from a Frenchmen cursing the plane for not dropping ammunition and 'letting them die like men'. Thoughts? Any truth? 2 years does seem a bit long but of course I was reminded of the Japanese soldiers coming out of the jungle in the 60s or 70s, and also after DBP fell some escaped from either the camp or prisoner columns and did eventually make it to French troops.

[JonS]

Including PW, the 1st AB Div at Arnhem took 77% cas.

(10,125 men flew or dropped in, up to 2,301 were evacuated. Source: Pegasus Archive)

[John Kettler]

Sublime,

I really need to read that book! There's little online regarding the 105mm howitzer fuzes of the period. I did, though, find this account of 1950 action in the Korean War. Paragraph 3 clearly identifies three types of ammunition: Fuze Quick, Fuze Delay and Fuze VT. I see no multifunction fuze listed. Granted, that may've changed between 1950 and 1953, but so far, I can't find any evidence.

http://www.kmike.com/Nevada/Pages/Begin54.htm

(Fair Use)

"The 5th crushed the NKPA soldiers, and, as the Communists attempted to retreat across the river, 1/11 had a good shoot. One battery was firing with fuze quick, one with variable-time (VT) fuze, and the others with fuze delay to kill the North Koreans under the surface.<40> Many North Koreans were shelled to death attempting to ford the river."

Suggest your perplexing "PSP pipe" was intended to read "PSP."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsden_Matting

Bleyer

(excerpt from cookie reply at 0407/12) Fascinating thread!

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=586860

(Fair Use)

"To answer Irish's question yes, members of the other German services were welcomed into the Legion. A number of ex Fallschirmjaeger joined the Legion paras. I think one of the most famous of the ex-Werhmacht recruits to serve in the Legion was Sgt Chef Bleyer of the 13e DBLE. He had served in WWII on the Russian front in the GrossDeutschland Division as a young conscript. He went on to fight at Dien Bien Phu and survived Viet Minh captivity. Of course, a Waffen SS soldier of the late war years, usually a conscript re assigned from the Luftwaffe or Kreigsmarine, and who did not have a blood tattoo, would have managed to get into the Legion without that tell tale sign. But in the immediate post-war years service in Indochina was harsh and casualties from mines, snipers, ambushes, diseases, desertion and rotation etc were high and did not lessen as the war went on. By 1950 the 3e REI, CIE Para 3e REI and the 1er BEP, were all almost wiped out to a man on RC4 and had to be re manned wholesale. How many WWII veterans would have been around by then?"

Also

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?120559-Herbert-Bleyer

(Fair Use)

"Do any of you know of Herbert Bleyer?

He was a veteran of Grossdeutschland, joined the Foreign Legion and served in Indochina, fought as a Sergeant Chief of 3rd Battalion, 13e DBLE at Dien Bien Phu, performed heroically at the Dominique and Huguette strongpoints, and suffered three wounds. He also survived capture and was repatriated after the battle, I think."

He died in 2000. Babylon translation of passage from here.

http://amalep.free.fr/aalep/tu/anciens/Numero41-fevrier_2001.pdf

(Fair Use)

Tuesday, November 7, 2000 14:45 hours

Funeral of the Former Legionary Herbert BLEYER with the funeral parlour of Montfermeil.

Colonels GUYOT, President of the A.M.A.L.E.P., and TAURAND like MM SALVAN, AGOSTA and DECHELETTE represented the friend fixes.

This is A.M.A.L.E.P. Shortly, you should be able to look up Herbert Bleyer directly on their site.

http://amalep.free.fr/aalep/recits-anciens.htm

Herbert Bleyer was a pretty big deal in the Legion. He was previously awarded the Military Medal.

Bleyer (Herbert, Kurt), February 18, 1926, Sergeant, Infantry, 32 years 2 months of service, 20 years 10 months bonuses. Military medal 25 March 1955.

I got that from this

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000000350194

(Translation)

Official Gazette No. 84 of 8 April 1990 page 4303

DECREE

ORDER OF THE LEGION OF HONOUR Decrees dated 5 April 1990 on the promotion, appointment and admission to treatment

NOR: DEFM9001287D

Ministry of Defense

The Last Valley "B" index page lists every Bleyer citation, from which you can run down the sources thereof. I couldn't access the footnotes at all from Google segments.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Sublime]

Hmm. Thanks. Yeah the Total War forum thing I found - nothing good there.

Para thx for the info on Arnhem - of course if I counted PWs for DBP the total percentage would be much higher. To be fair Windrow counted dead PWs (most died) as casualties.

Anyone got any info on the British in Korea? Specifically the battle where that battlegroup was surrounded and overrun?

[John Kettler]

Sublime,

Were your reaction to the painstakingly obtained fruit of hours of digging (two languages) any lower key, I'd have to send out the paramedics to make sure you were still alive. I'd say what I found marks a considerable improvement over the pretty much nothing ("never got the info I wanted on him, which was basically any") you said you had on Herbert Bleyer. Whether or not you found what I came up with of import, I learned quite a bit in the process.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Sublime]

Well it's interesting to me he survived all of it to 2000. But the Total war link, really look at it. It has someone asking the same question I did and some other guy saying 'oh if he was SS he shoulda been killed.'

The other stuff interesting, but my French is limited. I want to know - Where and when in GD during WW2. Pre DBP, and post DBO (Algeria?)

Dont take it personally, I was just telling you that it wasnt what I was looking for.

[Sublime]

Oh and I just was rereading your post - I meant PSP Plate. It's a metal square with perforated round holes. They make runways with it. The US used it everywhere in Vietnam for example.

[John Kettler]

Sublime,

Once I put the PSP thing through my Universal Decoder, I figured that one out. What I can't figure out, though, is what I'm supposed to get from the whole two posts in the TotalWar thread that we haven't covered already. Did I somehow miss something in what I thought was a simple, short, straightforward two post discussion?

Regards,

John Kettler

[Sublime]

You did miss something. Did you not read it? Part one had exactly what was in my question that I asked - Herbert Bleyers name, FFL experience.

The second poster didnt contribute or help at all. he was Polish and just said that if Bleyer was SS he should have been put in a camp and killed.

Whilst I agree that the SS WERE pigs and SHOULD all have been killed (reading this Steiner14 ??) I still want to know about Bleyer.

[JonS]

This thread is titled "Some of [Kettler's] thoughts ...". Isn't that a lie?

Because, really, it's just "more bollix Kettler googled"

[Sublime]

Oh stop Im here too

I'll happily put my name on the thread since I just finished Windrows book along with Roy's and got a shiny A on my DBP paper and an A on my Vietnam class =D

Oh and thanx for disappointing me. I thought steiner had responded and I could catch some recreation time on his neo nazi views

[Wodin]

This thread is titled "Some of [Kettler's] thoughts ...". Isn't that a lie?

Because, really, it's just "more bollix Kettler googled"

Maybe he should be given his own little forum where he can post away his links to his hearts content. It's like he has some sort of posting incontinence.

Still he is harmless bless him.

[Sublime]

haha ah you Brits always have a way with words. Posting incontinence. Thats classic.

[JonS]

got a shiny A on my DBP paper and an A on my Vietnam class =D

Well done you!