Zooks and schrecks on balconies

[poesel]

There's also another issue: if you order areafire and the unit has Schrecks then they will fire the Schrecks, too, even if there is no armoured target.

This is in direct contradiction to the Schreck manual posted here by umlaut (http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1404215&postcount=31) that says directly in paragraph 1: 'Zur Bekämpfung infanteristischer Ziele ist die Munition des Ofenrohrs nicht geeignet' (the ammunition of the Panzerschreck is unsuitable for infantry targets).

One might argue that firing the Schrecks might be intended but unless you split of the AT you can't stop them. At least they should only fire at buildings. Shooting at bocage seems like a big waste.

[Wicky]

just found an interesting photo sequence. The soldiers do not appear to be mightily impressed by the shooting. No idea what the polish text describes though.

pic snip

The sequence of stills from the film The Fall of Berlin (USSR, 1949) depict the firing grenade Pzf 100 by one of the defenders Wzgoarz Seelowskich, according to the director, was used to pictures of a real, painful grenade out of which only removed for fuses and detonators from the head. As you can see. the recommendations of instruction poses to death.

When firing a grenade launcher with vertical barrier at a distance of less than 4 meters behind the back was a lot of exaggeration, though the pleasure is probably no one had...

[Kanonier Reichmann]

KR,

You very nearly wound up with the clip of the PIAT vs Steiner from "A Bridge Too Far," but I managed to do a bit better ultimately.

Regards,

John Kettler

There's also a very good depiction of firing a Panzerfaust within a building in the classic 1950's anti war film Die Brucke. In it, a very young combatant fires the Panzerfaust at a Sherman tank from within a room without realising there was a civilian standing behind him at the time. Suffice to say it didn't end up well for the civilian but the room itself hardly collapsed all around him and appeared to be pretty much unscathed.

Admitedly this is all from a film but it was made relatively soon after the war and appeared to be using the real thing, much along the same lines as the film you referenced.

Regards

KR

[Vanir Ausf B]

Well, you have never experenced a busted eardrum, try that first, then tell me how your not willing to use the weapon correctly. Now the game could improve on where in the street the guy is shooting from, but he wants the street.

Clearly not every soldier wants the street, either in the real world or the game.

I think we would all like to see the ability to use building corners as cover implemented. It's needed for more than just AT rocket use. But that is likely to be a significant undertaking to get the correct TacAI routines and soldier animations. Allowing or disallowing any weapon to be fired from buildings is probably just a matter of setting a flag for that particular weapon and would be a relatively trivial change.

[John Kettler]

akd,

"Kids, DON'T try this at home!" Spectacular! Given the huge upheaval in the room, I'm amazed no one seems fazed or had his bell rung, let alone got hurt. It looks as though the backblast ripped up the room considerably, but the place wasn't intact to begin with, either. No idea whether or not he hit whatever he was aiming at. Terrific combat vid, and thanks for providing it!

KR,

Delighted you found what I provided helpful. I wonder why there's so vanishingly little PIAT footage online? You very nearly wound up with the clip of the PIAT vs Steiner from "A Bridge Too Far," but I managed to do a bit better ultimately.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

KR,

That one had somewhat slipped my mind, but I do now recall it, since you mentioned "The Bridge," a near zero budget provocative and insightful film.

RockinHarry,

Have you seen this one? Maybe you could get them to make you a clean PDF.

http://www.od43.com/Panzerfaust_Manual.html

Regarding the Panzerfaust photo sequence, at best it would seem to be a marginal shot in terms of safety regs. The instructions clearly specify the firer MUST make sure the back end of the tube is Above the foxhole. This one's so close that I can't tell whether or he just clears the jet above the trench back wall.

Wicky,

Thanks for providing context on the pics and informing me of a movie I never encountered before.

poesel71,

If you look at both the bazooka and M9 AT rifle grenade portions of that War Department training film "U.S. Infantry Weapons, " both are very nasty against sandbagged positions and pillboxes. I would expect the Panzerschreck to be even more destructive. I think the instruction was intended to prevent the weapon from being used as a crude HE thrower against briefly exposed, skirmish order infantry. Also, given the size, weight and cost of the projectiles, I have to believe there was also an implicit desire to husband the relative handful of rockets in the Panzerschreck equipped units, saving them for armored targets.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Kanonier Reichmann]

This is the original service manual D 560/4 for the PzFaust 100m as of january 1945. It´s quite brief and for obvious reasons anything but rocket science.

I bracketed the stuff of relevance for this thread in yellow and translated:

"When launched, there shouldn´t be anybody standing up to 10m behind the firer."

"The fire jet/blast can be lethal up to 3m if it hits a comrade."

"When fired from within a foxhole, make sure the tube end points above ground."

"Otherwise, when the tube end points within the hole, a clearance of about 1m (to the wall) is usually enough for the firers safety."

THAT´S IT!

Now use common sense and make own conclusions for any thinkable combat situation.

BTW, trying hard not to point out the bleedin' obvious but this actual wartime manual on the Panzerfaust 100 (i.e. the most powerful Panzerfaust) dispels the myth that the training manuals expressely forbid the firing of the weapon from buildings. Clearly you don't want to be anywhere near the rear of the weapon when it's fired but with the manual stating you only need roughly a metres clearance to the rear to avoid harm to the firer it seems clear that the blanket banning of the weapon being fired from within non pillbox structures is fundamentally flawed.

Regards

KR

[womble]

There's also another issue: if you order areafire and the unit has Schrecks then they will fire the Schrecks, too, even if there is no armoured target.

This is in direct contradiction to the Schreck manual posted here by umlaut (http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1404215&postcount=31) that says directly in paragraph 1: 'Zur Bekämpfung infanteristischer Ziele ist die Munition des Ofenrohrs nicht geeignet' (the ammunition of the Panzerschreck is unsuitable for infantry targets).

One might argue that firing the Schrecks might be intended but unless you split of the AT you can't stop them.

Yes you can: Target Light. Stops the unit firing anything bigger than small arms. No rifle grenades or ATR (R=recoilless) will be wasted on speculative targets if you use Target Light.

Edit: what you can't stop is a unit with no target order firing their RG/ATR at marginal targets when they spot them on their own.

[RockinHarry]

The sequence of stills from the film The Fall of Berlin (USSR, 1949) depict the firing grenade Pzf 100 by one of the defenders Wzgoarz Seelowskich, according to the director, was used to pictures of a real, painful grenade out of which only removed for fuses and detonators from the head. As you can see. the recommendations of instruction poses to death.

When firing a grenade launcher with vertical barrier at a distance of less than 4 meters behind the back was a lot of exaggeration, though the pleasure is probably no one had...

Thanks! Well, the original instruction manuals just tell that 1m clearance is sufficient for the firer to be safe from harmfull burning and blast from behind. That´s for the 100m version, which had the strongest, dual stage charge and surely counts the more for the smaller charges of the 30 and 60m versions.

That´s just the "technical" POV. The other is what´s (more) of concern, when in the heat of battle and a good opportunity to kill a tank at very close range provided. Soldiers are taught to take care of their comrades and less care of themselves and in this situation, the firer would just keep his back free from any squad mates and the enemy tank in sight. Bits of burned pants, likely was least of concern. :eek:

[John Kettler]

womble,

Your point about using Target Light to block firing of rifle grenades, Panzerfausts, bazookas, PIATs and Panzerschrecks is well taken and assuredly something I need to remember. Here's an eventual problem to consider, though. What happens when we get to the late war units armed with nothing but Panzerfausts? Do Target Light and Target then become identical in effect?

Regards,

John Kettler

[RockinHarry]

RockinHarry,

Have you seen this one? Maybe you could get them to make you a clean PDF.

http://www.od43.com/Panzerfaust_Manual.html

Regarding the Panzerfaust photo sequence, at best it would seem to be a marginal shot in terms of safety regs. The instructions clearly specify the firer MUST make sure the back end of the tube is Above the foxhole. This one's so close that I can't tell whether or he just clears the jet above the trench back wall.

Regards,

John Kettler

I´ve scans of this particular training leaflet, which is sufficient for my purposes. Would never spend 145 $ for an original. Saw some for a tenth of the price at local markets or german ebay I think. :cool:

As said, 1m (3 feet) clearance for the firers safety was noted to be sufficient, if it´s a straight wall behind the firer. The photo sequence above shows a bit more varied area behind the firer and the blast/fire jet likely is more dispersed this way and less dangerous. Due to the very low muzzle velocity of the launcher, it has always to be aimed at an angle, the more if the target is near the max range. This means, the blast mostly hits between 10~40° of whatever is behind the firer and thus most likely away from him.

With regard to effects of the warheads on infantry (Faust and Schreck), it was mainly dependent on struck materials. A tree hit would provide lots of wooden splinters, a wall hit sprays stone splinters and so on. Without that secondary shrapnel, the HEAT warheads were probably less effective than a standard hand grenade (of the offensive type) on personnel.

[ArgusEye]

Here is a video of B-10 recoilless rifle fired indoors:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xtzvrg_baba-amr-homs_news

Would be interesting to do an energy comparison between that and the Panzerfaust 30K.

The B-10 uses the ZhN-881 propellant charge, which is 821 gram of nitrocellulose/nitroglycerin. This amounts to 12-16 times the backblast of a PzF100, and to about 42-56 times the backblast of a PzF30k.

Evidence all points toward firing recoilless weapons from indoors not being a big deal in reality. Not just anecdotal evidence, but full US Army studies. I am surprised this is still a contentious issue.

[womble]

womble,

Your point about using Target Light to block firing of rifle grenades, Panzerfausts, bazookas, PIATs and Panzerschrecks is well taken and assuredly something I need to remember. Here's an eventual problem to consider, though. What happens when we get to the late war units armed with nothing but Panzerfausts? Do Target Light and Target then become identical in effect?

I have no idea, though current units that only have one type of fire seem to lack "Target Light" sometimes. I'm thinking of half tracks, which ISTR won't let me use a yellow line.

[John Kettler]

RockinHarry,

I wasn't suggesting you buy that one, which is why I specifically mentioned seeing into obtaining a clean PDF. It's good, though, to know such to me exotic ephemera can be had affordably. As an ordnance grog, you might want to look into the Crittenden & Schmitt Deacquisition Sale. Those guys have the most amazing manuals on DVD. Need to run a K5E, understand the intricacies of the needle rifle or maintain a Gatling Gun? These people have it. They have a Merkblatt covering all the German rifle grenades, too. So incredible is what is offered, that you could blow through the mortgage/rent payment without ever breaking a sweat. The collection from which these marvels are derived dates back to the firm which pioneered the manufacture of the drawn brass cartridge and has been built up and watched over by many generations.

Regards,

John Kettler

[RockinHarry]

RockinHarry,

I wasn't suggesting you buy that one, which is why I specifically mentioned seeing into obtaining a clean PDF. It's good, though, to know such to me exotic ephemera can be had affordably. As an ordnance grog, you might want to look into the Crittenden & Schmitt Deacquisition Sale. Those guys have the most amazing manuals on DVD. Need to run a K5E, understand the intricacies of the needle rifle or maintain a Gatling Gun? These people have it. They have a Merkblatt covering all the German rifle grenades, too. So incredible is what is offered, that you could blow through the mortgage/rent payment without ever breaking a sweat. The collection from which these marvels are derived dates back to the firm which pioneered the manufacture of the drawn brass cartridge and has been built up and watched over by many generations.

Regards,

John Kettler

John, yes I know you weren´t suggesting to buy that leaflet, but I commented cause I´m already long time collector of original german stuff from wartime and before, so have bit of an overview.

http://www.spwaw.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18276

[John Kettler]

RockinHarry,

Appreciate your sharing your list. Looks as though you've been at it for a bit! And happening to look at your location, I begin to see how one might come across such grog goodness.

Regards,

John Kettler

[beatmasta]

I think the balconies could be even more dangerous at some cases than firing it indoors. As the balconies usually are not very wide the wall might be very close to you and the backblast would bounce back even from closer than in the room.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CanphDUBac Here you can see the effect of the backblast. (Viewer discretion is advised as I do not know what eventually happened to that guy...)

[dieseltaylor]

Given the 180 degrees + of non-wall I would think the balcony would enable an angle of fire. There must also be a presumption that the target would be lower : )

[Vanir Ausf B]

There is presumably a doorway allowing entrance to the balcony. How hard would it be to leave the door open?

[Sublime]

Or if you'd be pointing the zook or schreck at an angle above the roof, or sideways so it blows along the wall instead of perpendicular. I think the balcony should be exempt at least somehow. I have noticed that if I have men try and fight from the balconies they get mowed down a lot quicker than they do inside the building. FWIW..

[Sgt Schultz]

I use balconies as porch roofs with no door leading onto them. This eliminates any temptation to have your boys hanging in the breeze.

Without the old CM1-style unit positioning(ex. unit in rear of building but looking to the front), structures will always have their weak points.

If BFC has stated that we are never getting zook/schrek firing from inside, then that is that. I keep holding out hope that Charles will find a way to code firing unit supression into the firing sequence when inside.

[Tempestzzzz]

Another thing bad about shooting a bazooka and Panzershreck indoors would be the fumes from the exhaust. That wouldn't be pleasant.

[RockinHarry]

Another thing bad about shooting a bazooka and Panzershreck indoors would be the fumes from the exhaust. That wouldn't be pleasant.

For the sake of immortal heroism, fumes (and burnt pants) would be accepted.

[womble]

One of the "features" I've seen brought up affecting the use of Fausts is that the largish charge of black powder involved produces large clouds of obscuring smoke. So firing it indoors would, I think, take some modelling of that, and I don't recall seeing smoke persisting much in buildings in the current engine iteration.

[John Kettler]

beatmasta,

At best, that man's unconscious and likely deaf. At worst, he's dead, and I deem that a distinct possibility.

Regards,

John Kettler