SGTRock Posted September 24, 1999 Author Share Posted September 24, 1999 Er, yeah...nightvision is interesting stuff, but getting back to my question Fionn, or BTS.. "how long would it take to impliment Flares(Starshells) into CM, or would it even be possible?? I mean seriously I don't want the game delayed anymore than possible, but if it's a realitively easy thing to do, why not? Sounds like history is backing me up here, so far? Whadda ya think?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 24, 1999 Share Posted September 24, 1999 Grunt.. shuffle.. Uh.. Me not coder.. Me gamer FWIW I've looked around a little and it looks like squad leaders did have a few starshells handy at most times. I'd imagine though that to be a bit realistic one should only use starshells when: a) conducting a deliberate attack (not a hasty attack) or defending at night in prepared positions. Just my two cents though. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGTRock Posted September 24, 1999 Author Share Posted September 24, 1999 Ooops. My bad Fionn..Hey, in anycase you took offence I was jk, about the bloody Mick thing. Maybe you can pass this question on to the higher ups? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted September 24, 1999 Share Posted September 24, 1999 Starshells and flares were used in Operation Market-Garden. You can see this if you have CC2. Look on the CD for a movie called "h9v.mpg". I might upload it to my webpage if enough people ask. So put them in CM!! [This message has been edited by Colin (edited 09-24-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 24, 1999 Share Posted September 24, 1999 No offence taken at all SGTROck.. As for higher ups.. Well Steve and Charles will read it here I guess . ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted September 25, 1999 Share Posted September 25, 1999 In the first day of the Buldge the Germans actually used searchlights reflected off of the cloud to somewhat illuminate the battlefield. Im not sure how effective this was, not overly I believe. I havnt yet found a reference to them using Star Shells on that night though, which if they were going to use them anywhere, youd think they would be there, though a lot of their forces were trying to avoid contact in the earlier hours.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted September 27, 1999 Share Posted September 27, 1999 I wrote: Losing night vision is not so big issue, since in the long run muzzle flashes of guns cause same effect. Moon wrote: Not quite true. Short flashes of light, even bright light, have no real effect on human night vision, only for a few seconds at most. OK. I sit corrected. And: And they were only effective as long as the other side didn't have any night vision equipment available. That IR beam could be seen for miles with a night vision scope and the tank using it would be an easy target. Soviet T-54 or was it T-55 series had similar system. There were couple of them in Finnish army (and they are still used for training purposes) and a friend of mine who served in tanks told me once the doctrine on their use: Only one tank in a platoon would turn its IR-light on. It would then try to illuminate as many targets as possible as the other tanks begin shooting at them. Then, about ten seconds later the illuminating tank will blow up and the next tank turns its light on. Not too comforting combat job... - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted September 27, 1999 Share Posted September 27, 1999 "I havn't yet found a reference to them using Star Shells on that night though, which if they were going to use them anywhere, youd think they would be there, though a lot of their forces were trying to avoid contact in the earlier hours" I've seen numerous pictures of hand held starcluster or verylight pistols being carried by german leaders. It's so much a mundane and normal part of operations it almost doesn't need to be mentioned, sort of like striiper clips for rifles. I have to get my hands on my "The German Rifle Squad" handbook which is a direct translation form their wartime manual. I seem to remember mention of mortar illumination, which would have been starshells. BTW the US infantry battalion Field manual circa 1950 (I have a copy) has a extensive chapter on conducting operations at night. This would have been materials lifted directly from WW2 SOP. One other little aside re: mortar fired starshells: A good FDC and moratr platoon can arrange their firing so they make neat little designs in the night sky like starshaped patterns, crescents, whatever. Seen it myself. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinM Posted September 28, 1999 Share Posted September 28, 1999 Steve, Found a brief account of German use prior to an offensive. It's somewhat generic but gives insight into usage by the Germans in Northwest Africa. "...Enemy preparations were observed on the afternoon of 5 December (1942). An attack was recognized as imminent. After a night in which German flares kept the area lighted for observation, the attack struck on 6 December..." From page 328 of US ARMY in World War II, Northwest Africa: Seizing the Initiative in the West Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 29, 1999 Share Posted September 29, 1999 OK, there are a few issues I want to discuss. The first is how large an area flares or starshells illuminate. titan said that his postwar experience with "para illum" mortar rounds was that they'd light up an entire square kilometer. This is enormous at CM's scale and would light up most or all of most maps. It's so big that it would be simpler just to play the scenario on the "dawn/twilight" setting rather than "night". So I'm wondering if all flare-type devices are so bright. Second, according to Moon, seeing the illumination devices can actually harm night vision once the device has burned out. So it appears sensible to use them only when the intent is to keep firing them in a continual process of illumination until the battle is over. In other words, you don't just shoot off a flare here or there. Once you see some enemy you light up the whole area and you keep it lit until combat is over. Is this correct? If so, then like above, it would be simpler just to play the scenario on the "dawn/twilight" setting rather than "night". Remember that CM doesn't simulate special ops where one side is trying to avoid detection, so, to some extent, non-heavy-combat night ops are beyond the scope of the game. CM simulates straight-up assaults where both sides are aware of the enemy presence (even if they don't immediately see enemy units). I bring all this up because implementing starshells and flares is not trivial. It can be done, but the question is: How much game improvement do we get from implementing flares compared to the time/effort to implement it, and is it more important than some other feature which we'd have to cancel in order to make room in the development schedule (which is very tight)? Keeping in mind that CM is not about spec ops, or even about patrols, but rather focuses on "major" (though small scale) assaults, my impression is that any battle in which flares are heavily used probably should just be played on the "dawn/twilight" setting rather than "night". I think I'd rather spend the time improving the AI, adding more vehicle types, squashing bugs, etc. But I'm open to discussion. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGTRock Posted September 29, 1999 Author Share Posted September 29, 1999 I know I maybe the odd man out here, but I'd like to see them implimented. They are a very real part of Night assaults and they do add a horror factor specifically to the team that get's caught out of cover! More environment is not a bad thing... ------------------ Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted September 29, 1999 Share Posted September 29, 1999 RE: Starshells. Hand held parachute flares, starclusters and what not, which are by FAR the predominant tyupe of illumination used in almost all cases light up very small areas for like a minute or so. We're talking a few hundered meters of useful illumination. BTW there are also ground based flares (more common) that you set out there with other noise makers in your defensive belt. Artillery and mortar rounds can light up to a klick but are usually in such short supply via a vis HE and smoke that you can't afford to keep them up there all night long (or even the length of a CM scenario unless it's been planned for way in advance. If you are tracking smoke rounds for your IF units (Or smoke misisons) than you can track illum rounds too. RE: the Night vision thing. The first thing every private in basic training is tought in the field phase is to keep an eye shut when flares go up! Unless the thing is in your face it shouldn't be too major of an issue. Say you are in a defensive position and somebody sends up a parachute flare, it's not that big an issue. Once a battle starts or you start shooting you are going to have night vision probelms caused by the flash of the weapon your are fired also. But it shouldn't be overstated. Though I wouln't mind seeing a night option available I wouldn't advocate taking time away from more pressing issues to explore the possibility. Maybe in some subsequent release if it works out. Concentrate on getting what's in there now working right! Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted September 29, 1999 Share Posted September 29, 1999 BTW there are otehr porfound effects to night operations other than how far can you see with a flare. Namely morale issues around fear, confusion, and isolation. As well as moving slower, and straying of course much easier. Just to name two effects. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGTRock Posted September 29, 1999 Author Share Posted September 29, 1999 LOS WROTE: "Though I wouln't mind seeing a night option available I wouldn't advocate taking time away from more pressing issues to explore the possibility. Maybe in some subsequent release if it works out. Concentrate on getting what's in there now working right!" Well put LOS I Agree with you, although I am privy to seeing it this time around ultimately the final word lies with BTS and if anyone wants this implimented speak now... ------------------ Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Pfeiffer Posted September 29, 1999 Share Posted September 29, 1999 FWIW, I'd rather see starshells/flares implemented in a later version of CM. Particularly the Mediterranean Theatre where night attacks with illumination were more prominant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Rock Posted September 30, 1999 Share Posted September 30, 1999 The website that Rock mentioned (http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usamhi/DL/AtoZ.htm) is brilliant. Tonnes of downloadable items. If you haven’t looked there, do so. A few notes on flares and illumination from LESSONS LEARNED and EXPEDIENTS USED IN COMBAT (War Dept July 1945): <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 276. Night Illumination. During a night attack, we fired white- phosphorus shells beyond the main attacking body. The enemy troops were thrown into bold relief, and our machine gunners were abIe to break up the attack with aimed fire." (MTO) 277. Night Illumination. Weans of illumination at night included searchlight beams directed against low-hanging clouds so as to reflect light along our wire; thermite grenades hung in trees 10 to 12 feet in front, of the wire and actuated by puIl wires; cans filled with sand and saturated with gasoline and oil mixture and ignited by thermite grenades. The standard l8 pound airplane parachute flare Mark IV, Model 3 (850,000 candlepower) gives the best light; for ground illumination. Parachutes are detached, and the flares tied in trees out- side the main line of resistance. Electric wiring is rigged to ignite the flares, so that closing the switch produces a brilliant light lasting three minutes." (SWPA) 340. Flares. "When we use an incendiary grenade as a substitute for a mortar flare, we place it eight inches above the ground and build a dirt shield around it to prevent illuminating friendly troops. The flares are placed in front of or to the side of our positions, so that the enemy fire they draw will not fall on our troops." (ETO) 341. Flares. "We used thermite grenades as a substitute for flares by attaching them to the rifle grenade adapter and firing them with the M7 grenade auxiliary booster charge. They give good visibility for one minute, and can be used at ranges up to 150 yards." (ETO) 362. Night Artillery Adjustment. "60-mm mortar illuminating shells were used to permit adjustment of artillery on an enemy tank that had been firing into our area at night. The mortar shell was known to illuminate 11 seconds after leaving the muzzle, and to burn for 15 seconds. The artillery reported that the time of flight of the artillery shell to the target was 17 seconds. The heavy weapons company com- mander arranged to fire the two at exactly the same time, thus giving the observer 9 seconds of light after the strike of the artillery. This enabled him to call corrections back to the battery. The procedure was continued until accurate fire was placed on the tank." (ETO) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My point? This is just scratching the surface, and it’s clear there is a lot of complexity to deal with to implement flares thoroughly. Furthermore I have yet to get a sense of how to quantify stuff like how many flares, illum shells etc should be allocated. For now I’d skip them. Apologies for long post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 30, 1999 Share Posted September 30, 1999 Los, the factors you talked about (slower movement, freaking out, etc.) are certainly going to get in. Not sure, but they might already be in there. As for flares and what not, we will probably have to stick them on the back burner. Looks to be quite a bit of work to do it right. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGTRock Posted October 1, 1999 Author Share Posted October 1, 1999 Np, Steve I understand that we can't have everything the first time round, do look forward to the second time around though! ------------------ Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lokesa Posted October 1, 1999 Share Posted October 1, 1999 oops, wrong thread [This message has been edited by Lokesa (edited 09-30-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Jones Posted October 1, 1999 Share Posted October 1, 1999 Here's a couple of links about night fighting that might be of interest. http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/documents/237ACY.htm http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/104-3/fm.htm [This message has been edited by Harold Jones (edited 09-30-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGTRock Posted October 22, 1999 Author Share Posted October 22, 1999 Hey Guys, I haven't seen any pictures of night fighting, do you have any?? ------------------ Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted October 22, 1999 Share Posted October 22, 1999 Jumbo of the Night Hope Jerry is Sleeping Just out of curiosity, were these shots from the map that Fionn and Martin played, but just during fall instead of winter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 22, 1999 Share Posted October 22, 1999 Ben, I think you're right. It looks very familiar to me and there's a Jumbo in there with terrain I recognise. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Stone Posted October 22, 1999 Share Posted October 22, 1999 Charles, The wish list for Starshells is nice, BUT I'd rather see "dead" bugs, a stronger AI, and more vehicular toys !!! Save starshells for CM2... My two cents. Preesh Nate It, Stoner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGTRock Posted October 23, 1999 Author Share Posted October 23, 1999 NICE! VERY NICE! Thanx BEN! I still would like to see star shells, flares incorperated into the game although it looks like the dark wouldn't really do it to much justice. My 2cents ------------------ Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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