Why are maps balanced?

[dieseltaylor]

No one thinks it odd to see a fence to nowhere? Maps need to have some logic. And I would pay a lot of money to see a photograph of wooden fence of that type -or in fact any type - in Sicily in that period.

Wood was an important resource and be used for necessary things like houses,boat building and cooking/heating. Fencing would be stone walls or vegetation.

[sburke]

I think it is odd folks are worrying about a dang fence on one map. Maybe the map was part of a larger map and they shrunk it a bit as the extra space wasn't necessary here and would just slow down game processing. Good lord man. DT I think you need a couple kids that are nothing but trouble just to keep you busy.

How much would you be willing to pay? I need to know how much effort I should put into this search so I get a decent return rate on my investment.

[JonS]

Well, he does say "a lot", and DT is a man of honour. I'd say he had at least £200 in mind.

[dieseltaylor]

Well thanks for the advice but my children are long gone : )

Thinking about all the helpers that BF attracts it strikes me that perhaps quite a few months ago BF could say to the likes of me or someone:

"For our scenario designers can you gather a guide together about what type of trees, crops, terrrain, buildings etc would be relevant to Sicily at that time. And in the course of that accumulate a database of photos that would be useful."

"And you might get a game! : )"

Now it might be that BF think that to do so would deprive lots of scenarios designers fun in finding these things out themselves. Or possibly they don't give a monkeys.

However the need to feel immersed in the time and place can be undone if something is glaringly wrong. I did see someone designed a Normandy map with a 5 storey building in the middle of a hamlet. It some ways it feels out that CMFI includes the wooden fence. I am told that in Sicily that the stone walls are often very low - more as markers than any attempt to keep stray animals away. I don't know if the design palette reflects this or even if these very low walls are a post-war development - though that seems unlikely.

[dieseltaylor]

Ah yes the amount to pay. I suppose £200 would be a reasonable amount. However I do think you would be wasting a lot of your life : ) I can send the money via GAJ's site so we need not share bank details.

I think it also advisable that we agree that I am not convinced by a single photo but need some thing saying how frequent /infrequent that type of fence is. I have established already that for horses that "western" style works but not for cattle, goats or sheep. You therefore need to have some horse connected areas. Finding one stud farm however will not mean that as a percentage of all the boundaries in Sicily it is significant enough.

Here is a photo of what is now current:

http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-95727556/stock-photo-fence-of-wooden-stakes-with-landscape-in-the-country-sicily-italy.html

and I understand they fence of the valuable woodlands with post and wire.

From an 1853 book I can tell you that they used agave for hedging no doubt with other prickly succulents added going into the 1900's.

[MikeyD]

""For our scenario designers can you gather a guide together about what type of trees, crops, terrrain, buildings etc would be relevant to Sicily at that time."

I could direct you to that very website if it weren't on the restricted side of the discussion board fence. One reference was a 1941 scholarly journal on Sicily's agriculture, population densities, products, etc,. Did you know between 1931 and 1936 some 40,000 Sicilians emmigrated? Pre-war sixty thousand people visited Sicily annually as tourists, spending 3 million dollars.

[Pete Wenman]

discussion board fence

He said fence - it's destroyed my entire immersion in this thread

[JonS]

It depends - is the discussion board fence wooden or stone?

[dieseltaylor]

I could direct you to that very website if it weren't on the restricted side of the discussion board fence.

: )

And what happens to all the scenario designers on the other side? Can you indicate where such useful stuff may be found. ?

I can add the TV series as a source for lots of film of the Sicilian countryside : )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvo_Montalbano

[JonS]

I would pay a lot of money to see a photograph of wooden fence of that type - or in fact any type - in Sicily in that period.

I am not convinced by a single photo

more generally;

someone designed a Normandy map with a 5 storey building in the middle of a hamlet.

Are you saying there are no 5-story buildings in Normandy?

[JonS]

Can you indicate where such useful stuff may be found?

Internets.

Libraries.

Books.

Magazines.

Journals.

Research! It's fun!

[GreenAsJade]

No one thinks it odd to see a fence to nowhere? Maps need to have some logic. And I would pay a lot of money to see a photograph of wooden fence of that type -or in fact any type - in Sicily in that period.

Wood was an important resource and be used for necessary things like houses,boat building and cooking/heating. Fencing would be stone walls or vegetation.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1401032&postcount=208

Mine Mine, the money is mine!

GaJ

[dieseltaylor]

: )

Are you saying there are no 5-story buildings in Normandy?

JonS

Why would I say anything stupid like that. The larger towns of Normandy would have dozens of taller buildings. A small town possibly not with the Hotel de Ville normally being the biggest building and that would be unlikely to be more than three or four floors.

Believe me a 5 storey building in a hamlet was never ever going to happen in Normandy in the 1940's. As far as I can see there is no strict definition by the French of a hameau other than an isolated building or group of buildings.

I have not been to every French village and hamlet in Normandy but I think I would recall if I have ever seen one with a mini skyscraper. Now if you are telling me that got blown up by the Allies during the fighting .....

: )

[JonS]

unlikely != impossible

I agree that tall buildings in small villages is unusual, and the kind of thing that a designer could usefully explain in the briefing (maybe it's a grain silo? Maybe it's a factory? Maybe it's a church because the designer didn't like the stock churches? Who knows, all we have to go on is your very partial description). But to say that the game is fundamentally flawed because some designer chose to add a tall building to his map ...?

You really are running out of things to whine about, aren't you?

[sburke]

Okay well it looks like this is one of those moments where some brave soul has got to be willing to sacrifice for the greater good. I'll do it. Yes damn it I said I will do it. If you guys will put together the fund I will visit every damn village, hamlet and crossroads in Normandy and document every 5 story I find assuming I am sober enough and not blinded from an overly long baguette poking me in the eye as my hand slips on the brie I was lathering on it.

And if you so desire I will also go to Sicily and find folks to talk about old wooden fences from the 1940's. I will sacrifice my time for the good of the game. No need to thank me.

So umm when is my flight getting booked?

[dieseltaylor]

Whining!? Tsk very emotive.

I was suggesting that BF help people who design maps to have access, in an easy manner, to resources that may help them make more believable maps. Apparently BF actually have this sort of resource hidden somewhere behind a wall.

I am pleased to learn this. I also wonder if it could be made more available.

You have taken the trouble to list these sources

Internets.

Libraries.

Books.

Magazines.

Journals.

and this of course is very helpful but some people have only a limited time and probably would appreciate being steered towards actual sources.

[dieseltaylor]

Okay well it looks like this is one of those moments where some brave soul has got to be willing to sacrifice for the greater good. I'll do it. Yes damn it I said I will do it. If you guys will put together the fund I will visit every damn village, hamlet and crossroads in Normandy and document every 5 story I find assuming I am sober enough and not blinded from an overly long baguette poking me in the eye as my hand slips on the brie I was lathering on it.

And if you so desire I will also go to Sicily and find folks to talk about old wooden fences from the 1940's. I will sacrifice my time for the good of the game. No need to thank me.

So umm when is my flight getting booked?

I admire the offer and I was going to say I would match whatever JonS puts up. Then I realised that perhaps as I live closer and often spend long holidays touring France it would be easier for me to do. Not quite the difficult sacrifice you are offering but a a small offering.

BTW my information on current field demarcation in Sicily comes from my brother travelling around there. He is prepared to go back but not this year. India beckons again.

[JonS]

I'm not going to teach you how to use the Google, or a library. For one one thing it's a fairly personal thing which everyone does in their own way. For another, it quickly gets into issues of reliability of sources, comparing and contrasting different accounts, and any number of other issues which are all highly relevant, but also very time consuming.

There have been any number of threads on the various CM forums pointing all and sundry to specific resources, and no doubt JK will be along at any moment with yet another of his patented load of unfiltered links.

Like a lot of folk here, I have a bookshelves and HDDs chock full of all sorts of material - clippings, books, documents, maps, articles, theses, reports, accounts, archives, photos, videos, sound recordings, manuscripts, compilations, essays, manuals, etc - that I've accumulated over the last 20-30 odd years.

A lot of it I've shared at various times and various places, some of it I haven't - for no particular reason - and some of it I can't, for various reasons. But I have no intention of giving any of it to you just because you demand it.

Jon

p.s. Whining might be emotive, but it's also very apt.

[dieseltaylor]

I am not asking for anything from you. I am not sure why you think I am.

I was suggesting that if there is a BF hoard of relevant information then people who do make maps, scenarios could save valuable time. If you are implying you are holder of BF's behind the fence information stash then don't worry I am not likely to want it as I do not make maps.

I take your point about different sources etc but generally speaking towns and countryside of the 1940's are not very contentious. I have a nice collection of modern French maps and a mini-library here at home but always think that the wider knowledge is spread the better.

You only have to look at the case of stabilised 75mm to see how not having the whole story has lead to a generation or two who religiously spout the line that the Sherman had a stabilised gun and this was a really big advantage. A truth with no caveats is as effectives as lying sometimes.