CMBN: Dien Bien Phu!

[John Kettler]

LongLeftFlank,

This is a piece intended to correct errors in a DBP wargame. It goes into considerable detail on unit specifics and has some surprises, to include considerable French fire support in the form of reserve tubes. I consider the French artillery availability table by day to be most valuable.

[DOC]

CITADEL ORDER-OF-BATTLE ERRATA

grognard.com/errata1/citadel1.docFile Format: Microsoft Word - Quick View

Finally, De Brancion notes that in a 1992 interview with British General Peter MacDonald, Giap stated that the Vietminh had 36 x 37mm guns at Dienbienphu.

Regards,

John Kettler

[LongLeftFlank]

JK, I'm sure this didn't occur to you, but I find your initial comment condescending and insulting. You want to see backblast, go ahead and do it, jackass. Download a hex editor and knock yourself out.

Oh, you can't, huh? Maybe it requires a little more effort and applied intelligence than vomiting out a few randomly selected google results, adding a bunch of "gosh, even *I* never knew that!" comments, and then smugly pronouncing it "required reading".

As is usual with you, the links you furnish are scattered retreads of vastly more comprehensive source material that is available on this very well-documented battle. Material you could actually find if you actually understood what research is. This spam provides little to no insight of any help to me in designing DBP scenarios for CM.

I have no idea who hired you as a "threat analyst" but in your (undoubtedly brief) tenure, you clearly never gained a grasp of analytical method. Moreover, you seem congenitally unable to draw indicative conclusions from what "data" does come under your nose. You're more like some backwoods shaman reading portents from chicken bones and cackling "aha! You see?" all day, to nobody in particular.

Let me make it easy for you: keep this rubbish out of my threads! Go posture as Autodidact Super Genius Professor of All Things Military somewhere else.

[Sublime]

Kettler, in the past I would be the first to condemn people for flaming you for no apparent reason. But LLF does have a point, you post links ad nauseum and often times the links are near useless or nothing special. Case in point the whole slew of links you provided me on the thread about me asking about Dragunov use in Vietnam. nearly all the links were useless gun sites that had only the very most basic info on the dragunov, if at all. And only one mentioned their use by Russians in Vietnam and it was a single sentence, with no proof, citations, or anything except the authors word (which I doubt).

While I think people are often to quick to get on your case, you have to look at your behavior - you dont need to trumpet your past as a threat analyst every other post, and you should refrain with the constant barrage of hyperlinks to sites with useless information or of dubious quality.

Just my opinion, since it seems that you do care that people are getting annoyed with you.

[nik mond]

LLF I am really looking forward to this with anticipation. The screen shots are most impressive. Great virtual ingenuity.

[John Kettler]

LLF,

You brought up the backblast issue, not me. Nor was it a big deal to me, more of an observation, for I recognize you're standing on your head to do what you do. I therefore see no need for withering blasts at me personally, and the shot about my short tenure as a threat analyst is both wholly uncalled for and untrue. I worked over eleven years for two of the top defense contractors in the country then, Hughes Aircraft Company, Missile Systems Group and Rockwell International, North American Aerospace Operations.

When someone spends hours trying to assist you in what benefits many of us, would it kill you to at least acknowledge the effort and maybe provide some guidance on how to do it better? What you got was the raw info, the fruits of many hours spent online. I thought it would help. Evidently, I was wrong.

Sublime,

I stood on my head in an effort to prove or disprove the assertion via considerable research. My usual mode is to gather as much information as I can, go through it thoroughly, then distill out the answers. Given that I'm not in very good shape these days compared to the mental acuity I had before hyper stress and repeated health implosions ate me alive, I do the best I can. This is why it's so hard for me to get really going on CMBN, where the brain load is much higher than in CMx1.

The links don't help much, but they were all I could find. Darn Spetsnaz and their poor documentation of their black ops! The library has or can get you that issue of FOREIGN AFFAIRS magazine. You might also see about contacting the authors of the article directly. The major problem here is that there simply is little online, or put differently, little online I've been able to find.

Maybe the way I go about trying to help doesn't suit some of you, but I mean no harm and am doing what I can to contribute to the commonweal.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Wicky]

My usual mode is to gather as much information as I can, go through it thoroughly, then distill out the answers.

Which has resulted in hilarious classics, such as 'Panzers on Mars':

The [Martian] artifacts found were only a few feet long but were recognizably martial. Gun emplacements and the shattered remnants of a tank seemed apparent to this writer, a former military analyst. One of the vehicles looked very much like a World War II German Panzer I, right down to its peculiar track work. Others seen in the vicinity looked like a World War I rhomboid tank and a U.S. M-48 of 1960s vintage.

Then there was your debacle involving V2 rockets supposedly launched through a tiny hole from Cherbourg gun emplacements, amongst many notable fails you've unashamedly come up with which don't exactly inspire confidence in your ' distilled answers' but did fittingly inspire the adjective 'Kettlerian'.

[LongLeftFlank]

OK John, I sincerely apologize for the ferocity of my earlier post, which is not the norm for me.

I just hit AUGH! the moment it became clear to me that you'd largely clicked the footnotes on the Wikipedia article and then followed them -- which I did as well, among many many other things. I just didn't feel the need to post them stream-of-consciousness style. It's a level of detail that clouds, instead of advancing, discussion of the topic at hand which is (or ought to be): how would one create interesting and historically insightful CMBN scenarios around Dien Bien Phu (or the First Indochina War in general)

John, your opinions on the topic -- mainstream or not -- are welcome here.

Just understand, it's kind of socially boorish to attempt to footnote someone else's conversation -- often with source material we would not ourselves choose or endorse -- without really participating in it. "I just thought you might be interested" isn't sufficient.

However you may intend it, that's about as "helpful" as standing over a chess player's shoulder and making suggestions.

I hope you understand now. Your friend, LLF.

[LongLeftFlank]

There's a great old joke I'll bowdlerise here about a management consultant who approaches a shepherd and offers to guess his profession in return for one of his sheep. After some extended reasoning, he guesses accurately, of course.

Then the shepherd replies: "You are clearly a consultant, and this is how I know. You gave me detailed answers I already knew to a question I didn't ask. Now give me back my dog"

[JonS]

This seems like the kind of thing that a few folk around here desperately need to read and comprehend:

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4336

[John Kettler]

LongLeftFlank,

Thank you! We're good. If I can remember, in the future I shall first ask you to see what you may already have. As for myself, I haven't really read much of anything on DBP since I read Fall's HELL IN A VERY SMALL PLACE--in high school!

You might say, therefore, that I got "high on information" when I encountered what was, to me, a veritable cornucopia of not only loads more detail on the battle in general, but most especially, the battle from the Viet Minh side, using astounding material I never knew existed, never mind English.

The maps blew me away, as did the information on how Giap really operated his artillery. Obviously, it's been ~4 decades since I read that splendid book, but I don't remember anything about the Viet Minh artillery other than there was a lot of it and it was a huge effort to bring it into position. I don't recall ever reading anything about practically all that artillery's being confined purely to Direct Fire. Am guessing every DF gun is going to have to start dug in?

The material on airpower and various U.S. intervention options was new to me, other than that later in life I learned more about the nuclear strike options under consideration. What I unearthed on U.S. regional airpower was both intriguing and informative, and might form a basis for some What If scenarios. And I had no idea there was even such a thing as a day by day French artillery availability chart.

I have to say I found the various French defensive positions stunning in their size and complexity. Am pretty sure the U.S. never had anything remotely like them, even at Khe Sanh. My usual concept of a defensive position is shaped by the Vietnam firebase designs. The Wiki on the Khe Sanh Combat Base is awful, but this graphic may provide some insights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Detail_Map_Khe_Sanh_Combat_Base.jpg

Here's a color oblique overhead shot of Khe Sanh Combat Base.

http://www.2ndbattalion94thartillery.com/Chas/carroll%202.jpg

Could you please give me some sense of how the Khe Sanh Combat Base compares in size to the French positions at DBP? Thanks!

Wicky,

You, sadly, haven't the faintest idea of what NASA's found and covered up for decades, never mind the latest discoveries. Do let me partially recalibrate you!

Please explain "Commander Data's Head," which was found in crater Shorty?

http://www.enterprisemission.com/datashead.htm

Next, I invite you to read Hoagland & Bara's NEW YORK TIMES Nonfiction Bestseller DARK MISSION.

When you've grokked all that, this should keep you busy.

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/43ancients/02files/Moon_Images_Menu.html

Concerning my V-2 gaffe, that was long ago, I admitted the mistake, and I believe I printed a correction, too. When I wrote it, I didn't have the benefit of Henshall's later book NUCLEAR AXIS. In it, information was provided from which it was evident that the locals snookered Henshall. How? They gave him the impression that what looked like silos had been built by the Germans. In reality they were naval type barbettes for pre war, but never finished, French coastal gun turrets. Big difference!

This is a similar German coastal gun turret.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?87940-German-WWII-coastal-battery-Austr%E5tt-fort-Norway

Regards,

John Kettler

[Thomm]

Please explain "Commander Data's Head," which was found in crater Shorty?

http://www.enterprisemission.com/datashead.htm

There have to be thousands of rocks on the moon that look like human heads.

That's a matter of statistics.

Don't you agree?

Best regards,

Thomm

[Sublime]

gah. jesus this is what I mean. Kettler cant you see why people post flames on you all the time when you.re posting stuff insisting theres a massive NASA coverup? ETs? Really? Cmon this is a DBP thread anyway

[LongLeftFlank]

No more mention of NASA, flying saucers and other such nonsense here!

And this is NOT a general discussion thread to BS and bicker at length about any and all things Dien Bien Phu, or dump link after link after link. DBP is -- mirabile dictu! -- a Large Topic, with lots and lots and lots of stuff available on the Interwebz, in multiple languages. JK, that includes lengthy comparisons to Khe Sanh, which has been done to death in other fora, but has no application whatever to designing interesting CM scenarios for the First Indochina War. Either go to a different forum -- armchairgeneral seems like a good one -- or start a different thread in the BFC General Forum.

Same thing goes for the irresolvable "Who Were The Good Guys?" discussions, or whether Ed Lansdale and Lucien Conein suckered Uncle Sam into Vietnam at the behest of the China Lobby or United Fruit or the Luciano mob.

On the other hand, the role of artillery in the battle -- whose quantity and quality, it seems, still isn't entirely settled history -- is a relevant discussion. More on that later.

[JonS]

There have to be thousands of rocks on the moon that look like human heads.

Pish posh. Nasa never got to the moon anyway, so those "Data's Head" photos were obviously taken on the same sound stage as this other forgery

(note the Prop Department's "C" identifier clearly visible on the rock)

[Wodin]

Squad Battles has a DBP game in the series.

LLF, just looked through the thread, some great work there changing the Brits into NVA.

Here are some examples of traditional wargames where, in contrast to CM, the scale is too *high* to provide any meaningful insights into what went down at DBP, other than "he had more guys (counters and combat factors) than you, and eventually you lost". True, at bottom, but not insightful to my mind.

[Sublime]

Jon, you should reconsider your flamewar against JK. You two seem to have a lot in common. Imagine: you guys could email eachother conspiracy theories and save your WW2 knowledge for here!

[LongLeftFlank]

This might help

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/indochina_and_thailand/txu-oclc-6535632-nf48-9.jpg

OK, in a desperate last ditch effort to clear the fruits and nuts out of here, I'm going to saturation bomb my own thread with a bunch of maps and imagery that will bore everybody to tears but will be helpful to me as I pin out my master map of the GONO central fortified zone. ZULU KILO, feu sur ma position. Vive la Légion! Out.

[LongLeftFlank]

Link to excellent French miniatures site containing additional imagery I won't repost here.

[sburke]

Finally!! All this side discussion was just to make you get off your a** and post some pics.

Nice stuff by the way.

[LongLeftFlank]

[Wodin]

Think I walked in on something..whoops...

Anyone good luck with it LLF. Oh and maps are the last thing to put up if you didn't want me looking at the thread;)

[Sublime]

LLF- Thanks for the maps. Im writing a paper on DBP for my War in Vietnam class, and the map showing the French hilled positions really helps put things in perspective..

edit: also - sorry JonS. I actually thought you were serious about the lunar thing..

[LongLeftFlank]

PM me with an email and I'll send you my research notes to date, which include extensive quotes from Jules Roy's and Windrow's books (you'll have to look up page numbers yourself, sorry). I also PDFed Windrow's maps, although I'm not posting them here out of respect for copyright.

[John Kettler]

LLF,

Color me confused! I looked up "cuvette" which appeared in a caption one of the DBP maps, and this makes no sense to me. Laboratory glassware.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuvette

Apparently, a cuvette is also a cunette, but even that definition makes little sense to me.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cunette

Noun

cunette (plural cunettes)

A trench dug in a moat to allow for drainage, or as an extra obstacle for attackers.

Is this some sort of an idiomatic French expression? In any event, it's quite clear you found the very things I did as far as most of the maps and photos. You've got several photos I never saw. I thought the ones at the bottom of that Indo-China reenactor group page were pretty remarkable.

It's really a shame there isn't a Resize Person tool in the Editor. Of course, then we'd demand a Physiognomy by Ethnic Group tool, too. Have to be patient, I guess.

Sublime,

In retrospect, it was probably not the best idea to respond to Wicky as I did, but it's fair to say he got this ball rolling by going directly after me to make me look even worse following my unfortunate duplicative research presentation. But I guess we can't all be as right as he is. Never fear, for Michael Emrys will appear and sue him out of existence for trademark infringement!

Regards,

John Kettler

[LongLeftFlank]

Yet again John, what on earth does this kind of ephemera have to do with Dien Bien Phu and CMBN scenario design? Nothing, that's what. If you must know, "la Cuvette" means "the toilet bowl" -- that's what the French transport pilots began calling the valley, and that name caught on as things started going downhill.

In any event, it's quite clear you found the very things I did as far as most of the maps and photos.

Well aren't you just awesome. I suppose I'll start being impressed when you actually do something useful with those mad research skilz.

Here, read something interesting: Declassified ARPA translation of 1957 French "lessons learned" paper on Indochina War.

Those bo doi and dan cong (coolies/porters) were some busy beavers.....

And I have no idea how this guy could possibly assert a copyright over a snipped portion of a NIMA map section, so I am going to ignore that, although I'm not reproducing the map itself here, just a link.